D2 Battery lifespan question

[J3ph_42]

I currently own a G3 whose power/play button stopped working. So I want a new DAP. Looks like I'm buying another iAudio sincemy music collection is fairly diverse (mp3, wma, FLAC, and OGG), and Cowon seems to be the only company who care about formats other than MP3 and WMA.
So I was looking around for a new one, and while it's a little pricey for me, the D2 looks like a really nice player, but I had heard complaints about the LiON batteries in the X5 starting to really loose their charge after 8-12 months. I read some links to batteryuniversity that were posted in another thread and I'm worried about the same thing happening with a D2, which I can't afford to replace annually. Any comments about the battery life based on personal experience or technical knowledge about the specific type of battery used or suggestions to use a player with NiCD/NiMH batteries are welcome.

[victorvd]

I don't want to create a new topic for my question so I'll post it here. I don't have an answer for your question.

What is the best way to use my battery the first time? Fully charge then fully discharge?

When is the best time to charge? at half battery? no battery?

[Ajacied88 NL]

Originally Posted by victorvd

I don't want to create a new topic for my question so I'll post it here. I don't have an answer for your question.

What is the best way to use my battery the first time? Fully charge then fully discharge?

When is the best time to charge? at half battery? no battery?

I don't think it will be good for the Lithium battery to fully discharge and then charge it full.

[addz]

can any one clarify this, full discharge recommended, otherwise is their a particular spot when one should fully charge the battery up again?

[Erasure4ever]

Best way to prolong the lifespan of li-ion is partial discharges with complete discharge every 30 charges to reset the internal battery gauge. Don't let it discharge beyond 40% too often.

[Aevum]

theres also a restoration process for batteries, but it requires the battery to be removed from the device, you take the battery out, wrapp it in tissues (MUST BE DRY), and put it in a sealed (must be sealed) sandwidth or zipbag, can also use transparent wrapping paper aslong as its well sealed and no humidity can reach the battery,

leave it in your freezer for a week, afterwards you take it out, and give it a first cycle charge (that 12-20 hour charge they recommend when you first get a device), the battery should have regained some or all of the lost capacity,

[bonfyah]

IMPORTANT INFO!

Originally Posted by Erasure4ever

Best way to prolong the lifespan of li-ion is partial discharges with complete discharge every 30 charges to reset the internal battery gauge. Don't let it discharge beyond 40% too often.

The complete discharge is only for NiCad, there's no memory effect loss in Li-ions. You should never, ever, fully discharge your li-ion battery... it's the number 1 killer.

Some info:

"Unlike NiCad batteries or NiMH batteries, lithium-ion batteries should be charged early and often. However, if they are not used for a longer time, they should be brought to a charge level of around 40%. Never use the battery care functions some cellular phones provide for nickel based batteries. (This will deep cycle the batteries.)
Li-ion batteries should be kept cool. Ideally they are stored in a refrigerator. Aging will take its toll much faster at high temperatures. Keeping them in very hot cars can kill lithium-ion batteries.
Avoid running the battery through "deep discharge" cycles — that is using it until it's fully depleted to 0 %.
Many authors suggest that freezing Li-ion batteries may be detrimental. However, most Li-ion battery electrolytes freeze at approximately -40 °C. Household freezers rarely reach below -20°C. Published experiments demonstrate that freezing (even below -40°C) is unharmful if the battery is fully warmed to room temperature before use.
Buy Li-ion batteries only when needed. Look at the manufacturing date. That is when the aging process begins.

Permanent Capacity Loss versus Storage Conditions Storage Temperature

40% Charge 100% Charge

0 °C (32 °F) 2% loss after 1 year 6% loss after 1 year
25 °C (77 °F) 4% loss after 1 year 20% loss after 1 year
40 °C (104 °F) 15% loss after 1 year 35% loss after 1 year
60 °C (140 °F) 25% loss after 1 year 40% loss after 1 year"

Given the high battery capacity you should expect being happy with it for 4 years (down to 70-80%) or so provided you rarely (if ever) let it drain completely. Leave a smidgen and you're cool.

[IceDragon7]

Originally Posted by bonfyah

IMPORTANT INFO!



The complete discharge is only for NiCad, there's no memory effect loss in Li-ions. You should never, ever, fully discharge your li-ion battery... it's the number 1 killer.

Some info:

"Unlike NiCad batteries or NiMH batteries, lithium-ion batteries should be charged early and often. However, if they are not used for a longer time, they should be brought to a charge level of around 40%. Never use the battery care functions some cellular phones provide for nickel based batteries. (This will deep cycle the batteries.)
Li-ion batteries should be kept cool. Ideally they are stored in a refrigerator. Aging will take its toll much faster at high temperatures. Keeping them in very hot cars can kill lithium-ion batteries.
Avoid running the battery through "deep discharge" cycles — that is using it until it's fully depleted to 0 %.
Many authors suggest that freezing Li-ion batteries may be detrimental. However, most Li-ion battery electrolytes freeze at approximately -40 °C. Household freezers rarely reach below -20°C. Published experiments demonstrate that freezing (even below -40°C) is unharmful if the battery is fully warmed to room temperature before use.
Buy Li-ion batteries only when needed. Look at the manufacturing date. That is when the aging process begins.

Permanent Capacity Loss versus Storage Conditions Storage Temperature

40% Charge 100% Charge

0 °C (32 °F) 2% loss after 1 year 6% loss after 1 year
25 °C (77 °F) 4% loss after 1 year 20% loss after 1 year
40 °C (104 °F) 15% loss after 1 year 35% loss after 1 year
60 °C (140 °F) 25% loss after 1 year 40% loss after 1 year"

Given the high battery capacity you should expect being happy with it for 4 years (down to 70-80%) or so provided you rarely (if ever) let it drain completely. Leave a smidgen and you're cool.

So it's a bad idea to fully discharge Li-ion batteries then charge it? Can we get some sources of where you got this info from?

[bonfyah]

Originally Posted by IceDragon7

So it's a bad idea to fully discharge Li-ion batteries then charge it? Can we get some sources of where you got this info from?

Google Li-ions. This specific quote I pulled from wikipedia.

[IceDragon7]

Originally Posted by bonfyah

Google Li-ions. This specific quote I pulled from wikipedia.

I always thought u were suppose to fully discharge them...guess I know how my X5 died so quickly . So is there such thing as over charging the Li-ion battery?

[bonfyah]

Oh...

"Although lithium-ion is memory-free in terms of performance deterioration, batteries with fuel gauges exhibit what engineers refer to as "digital memory". Here is the reason: Short discharges with subsequent recharges do not provide the periodic calibration needed to synchronize the fuel gauge with the battery's state-of-charge. A deliberate full discharge and recharge every 30 charges corrects this problem. Letting the battery run down to the cut-off point in the equipment will do this. If ignored, the fuel gauge will become increasingly less accurate."

My mistake.

30 charges 40%, then a deep charge.

[bonfyah]

Originally Posted by IceDragon7

I always thought u were suppose to fully discharge them...cause I know how my X5 died so quickly . So is there such thing as over charging the Li-ion battery?

Yeah, I killed a couple of cellphone batteries before a salesman enlightened me. Guess it's stuck in the sociala wareness.

You can't overcharge li-ions, most (all?) devices have a fail safe.

[IceDragon7]

Originally Posted by bonfyah

Yeah, I killed a couple of cellphone batteries before a salesman enlightened me. Guess it's stuck in the sociala wareness.

You can't overcharge li-ions, most (all?) devices have a fail safe.

So whenever the battery goes below 50% recharge until full?

[bonfyah]

Originally Posted by IceDragon7

So whenever the battery goes below 50% recharge until full?

That would be ideal, yes. Plus, reset the battery gauge with a deepcharge every 30 charges or so.

I mean, it's not as if you'd have to get all weird about it. As long as you don't deep charge more than necessary and keep it above 40% when possible you'd be ok.

(the point being that some kill their li-ions thinking they're doing maintenance, when they're in fact killing it)

[J3ph_42]

Didn't think my thread would go like this, but no big deal.

Originally Posted by bonfyah

IMPORTANT INFO!

Given the high battery capacity you should expect being happy with it for 4 years (down to 70-80%) or so provided you rarely (if ever) let it drain completely. Leave a smidgen and you're cool.

Good to know. Anything else to know about the lifespan of these things? Longevity is relevant to me because I don't want to have to replace a D2 annually.