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AlexP
04-04-2006, 09:58
Hi,

I just looked here to the forum to see, if iAudio implemented the ID3-Tag browsing in the actual firmware.
But as I saw, this feature is still not in the actual firmware update.

After klicking through the forum I saw that there is a new firmware called "rockbox".

No my questions:
- what are the features of that firmware, that the original does not have?
- what are the features of the original, that rockbox doesn't have ?
- how stable is the current version of rockbox for the iAudio X5 ? are there still bugs in it ?
- how do I install it ?

Thanks for the answers and greetings from Germany

Alex

reflux
04-04-2006, 10:04
Hi Alex,

try and read the Rockbox-Threads, thats why they are written ... :)

Greetings from Bavaria

vince.nl
04-04-2006, 10:07
at this moment, the only advantages of the original firmware over rockbox are fm-radio, usb-OTG, video playback and a better batterylife.

rockbox has tons of advantages, see www.rockbox.org

for the rest of your questions, just read through the threads concerning rockbox.

edit: little late :)

Lighter
04-04-2006, 10:24
try and read the Rockbox-Threads, that's why they are written ...
I've tried - but there are hundreds - thousands. And nothing seems on point regarding this question. A simple answer is needed. OR a concise review.

vince.nl
04-04-2006, 10:36
rockbox features are listed on rockbox site

searching the forum (ie for "rockbox install" or "installing rockbox") will lead you to posts you are looking for.

A forum is a great source for information, but please try and help to keep it tidy and structured, topics like these make it expand too much, with too much topics covering the same subject.

doniago
04-04-2006, 12:05
I believe Rockbox doesn't currently support OGG either?

frankmulder
04-04-2006, 12:30
Rockbox supports more formats than the original firmware; including OGG (and even gapless).

frankmulder
04-04-2006, 12:37
1 what are the features of that firmware, that the original does not have?
2 what are the features of the original, that rockbox doesn't have ?
3 how stable is the current version of rockbox for the iAudio X5 ? are there still bugs in it ?
4 how do I install it ?

1: Gapless playback, ReplayGain support (adjust volume so that tracks sound equally loud), ID3 tag browsing, games, various other useful plugins, more customizable interface (you can create your own theme), no file limit, support for more formats; see http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WhyRockbox for more info.
2: WMA playback (actually Rockbox now has preliminary WMA support), USBOTG, FM Radio, recording, video playback, better battery life (at the moment), more audio effects (BBE etc), no warranty void if installing it.
3: It's not officially stable, but practically it is (official release date is actually in November). Every program has bugs, so Rockbox has too.
4: See http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/IaudioBoot for that (please read through the forums first; this has been asked very often).

Hope this gives a nice short comparison of the two firmwares.

EDIT: Added BBE suggestion by dfkt to the list. :)

dfkt
04-04-2006, 13:03
I believe Rockbox doesn't currently support OGG either?

Rockbox supports tons of audioformats, a lot more than the original firmware. The only codec that Rockbox doesn't support is WMA-crap. Not a big loss.

Why shouldn't an open-source firmware support open-source audiocodecs? I bet OGG was supported before MP3, even! :P

Read http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/FeatureComparison, everything you need to know is on the Rockbox site already...

2 what are the features of the original, that rockbox doesn't have ?

Cowon firmware has BBE (http://www.bbesound.com/) sound enhancements, which some people love and can't live without, while others don't like it.

I love BBE and Mach3Bass, used sparingly...

Rockbox will never support BBE because it is patented technology.

TunsterX2
04-06-2006, 08:44
Cowon firmware has BBE (http://www.bbesound.com/) sound enhancements, which some people love and can't live without, while others don't like it.

I love BBE and Mach3Bass, used sparingly...

Rockbox will never support BBE because it is patented technology.

As much as I love the BBE sound enhancements (with my M3), I don't think I will need them if sound quality is brilliant with Rockbox. As we're moving onto lossless and significantly better compression technologies (WavPack in Hybrid Mode, OGG, MonkeyAudio etc), we won't need them.

I'm sure if a programmer was willing to do so, the BBE features could be replicated quite nicely one day...

djtsha
04-06-2006, 09:31
rockbox - no line in, mic, radio, video & shit battery life otherwise its superb.

for sound enhancments there is a wicked and extremely customizable eq. no need for "psychoacoustic" bollox of BBE

dfkt
04-06-2006, 11:56
As much as I love the BBE sound enhancements (with my M3), I don't think I will need them if sound quality is brilliant with Rockbox. As we're moving onto lossless and significantly better compression technologies (WavPack in Hybrid Mode, OGG, MonkeyAudio etc), we won't need them.

I'm sure if a programmer was willing to do so, the BBE features could be replicated quite nicely one day...

The music I'm listening to is flawlessly encoded, there's no difference to the original CD.

BBE has nothing to do with restoring badly encoded audio. At least in my case (I don't use MPEnhance) - but I want bass, and Mach3Bass simply does a better job than a mere EQ could do.
And BBE adds some spaciousness to the sound, it sounds more alive than without the enhancement. Especially with IEMs it helps, because the sound is not completely 'in your head' anymore, it helps creating a better soundstage, IMO.

That's why I like the different BBE enhancements. It has nothing to do with how good (or bad) the audiocodec is that one uses.

dfkt
04-06-2006, 11:57
for sound enhancments there is a wicked and extremely customizable eq. no need for "psychoacoustic" bollox of BBE

There are "psychoacoustic bollox" in Rockbox: did you ever try Crossfeed?

lightyears
04-06-2006, 13:18
crossfeed lowers the volume quite a bit

GMan4911
04-06-2006, 13:37
BBE attempts to restore what was taken out during the compression process using interpolation and extrapolation. For high bitrate/lossless, you really don't need to enable BBE. For low bitrate, say 128k or below, you might want to use it to restore some of the lost dynamics. It's a different process than equalization.

PJH
04-06-2006, 13:52
rockbox - no line in, mic, radio, video & shit battery life otherwise its superb.

for sound enhancments there is a wicked and extremely customizable eq. no need for "psychoacoustic" bollox of BBE

Until Rockbox has the same (or better) sound as the Cowon firmware, I'm staying put. I'm also not going to void my warranty just yet. I bought my X5 because it sounds good and not so I can play some stupid video game. The BBE and Mach3bass are what give it the extra something.

KiB
04-06-2006, 14:02
rockbox - no line in, mic, radio, video & shit battery life otherwise its superb.



so you just CANT use those features with rockbox? can you switch "modes" and turn off rockbox if you need/want to use the mic/radio/video?


and is the battery life shit because of playing games and stuff with rockbox, or even simple audio playback has compromised battery life w/ rockbox?

PhR3aK
04-06-2006, 14:42
Battery life is worse even when your just playing audio, its just because of the fact that the codecs are not 100%ly optimized and the x5 hardware isnt fully "integrated" in rockbox (-> power management: 10%).

afruff23
04-06-2006, 15:15
Preliminary WMA support (http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/4984)
I suggest you all edit your posts saying rockbox doesn't support WMAs. Don't expect a patch to play DRM'd WMAs. It's not gonna happen unless MS becomes a socialist.

afruff23
04-06-2006, 15:18
In the future you can defintitely expect the following: mic support, line-in, fm radio, and constantly optimized battery life. USB-OTG is on the todo list (http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/IaudioPort#ToDo), but you can't expect support for that for a while now.

Video is in the general rockbox feature requests I believe. Don't expect this item anytime soon either.

KiB
04-06-2006, 15:30
by the time I

a. actually get a player
b. eventually install rockbox on said player,

everything should be ace!

GMan4911
04-06-2006, 15:42
Preliminary WMA support (http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/4984)
Don't expect a patch to play DRM'd WMAs. It's not gonna happen unless MS becomes a socialist.
I think it's just a matter of copying the licenses to the X5 and writing some code to ensure the license is valid so that the files can be decrypted. I'm not sure about the specifics but I suspect the decryption keys are kept with the license. The decryption algorithm is probably open (or maybe you have to get a license to gain access to the libraries) so implementing it shouldn't be a problem. If enough people want it, I'm sure someone will start up a collection to get the Rockbox guys a license.

dfkt
04-06-2006, 18:19
BBE attempts to restore what was taken out during the compression process using interpolation and extrapolation. For high bitrate/lossless, you really don't need to enable BBE. For low bitrate, say 128k or below, you might want to use it to restore some of the lost dynamics. It's a different process than equalization.

That's what MP Enhance (http://www.bbesound.com/technologies/BBE%5FMP/) does. The main BBE (http://www.bbesound.com/technologies/BBE%5FHDS/) enhancements do other things do the sound.

FishBowl
04-06-2006, 18:20
DRM decryption can't be open-source. It would be too simple to hack.

afruff23
04-06-2006, 19:03
DRM decryption can't be open-source. It would be too simple to hack.
Exactly.

Arachnophilia
04-06-2006, 19:51
2: ...FM Radio...

no radio? are they planning on implimenting one?

surprisingly, having a radio is really important to me.

GMan4911
04-06-2006, 20:22
DRM decryption can't be open-source. It would be too simple to hack.
Not necessarily. I've seen hints, but have not been able to confirm, that MS DRM uses AES and that algorithm is public. It's actually more important that the license generation algorithm be closed. Also, OpenPGP is, umm, open, and I haven't found any reference to it being hacked. It's all about the licenses/keys.

afruff23
04-06-2006, 23:09
If it's so easy to hack, why hasn't it been cracked yet?

cxrazy
04-06-2006, 23:11
I love rockbox, except I get about 3-4 hours of battery.

real bad.

Fix the battery life, get radio, USB OTG, and mic rec and Im sold!!!

GMan4911
04-06-2006, 23:19
If it's so easy to hack, why hasn't it been cracked yet?
:confused:

If what is so easy to hack?

afruff23
04-06-2006, 23:45
DRM, since you say the algorithm generator is open-source.

GMan4911
04-07-2006, 00:01
It was Fishbowl who said if it was open it would be easy to hack. I assert that just because something is open, it doesn't necessarily make it easy to hack. My example is AES and OpenPGP. Both are open yet neither has been hacked (at least to my knowledge).

GMan4911
04-07-2006, 03:30
For those who are curious about what's required to implement Windows Media DRM, here's an overview (http://download.microsoft.com/download/3/a/f/3afb9301-5ade-4247-98ba-7a06efb75168/Introducing_Janus_and_Cardea.doc). Unfortunately, it looks like the licensing and royalties involved precludes the Rockbox team from implementing it for the X5.

TunsterX2
04-07-2006, 10:22
That's what MP Enhance (http://www.bbesound.com/technologies/BBE%5FMP/) does. The main BBE (http://www.bbesound.com/technologies/BBE%5FHDS/) enhancements do other things do the sound.

Why would you want BBE on your DAP to not enhance compressed audio? The MP Enhance on its own does nothing to my MP3s to enhance them.

From uncompressed/lossless codec audio, you don't need BBE. I have very few FLAC files on my M3, but, I can tell you, no way do I need BBE on. All the dynamics and sounds is there. I might want EQ on to emphasise the audio, but, there's no need to use BBE to make it sound like the original.

Even though you may say its BBE's intentions to give you a better sound, its most probably there for audio enhancement for lossy codecs. Cowon having probably decided it wanted to include it to give the iPod a run for its money.

dfkt
04-07-2006, 10:37
So you really don't know what BBE is or does, it seems. Or you don't know the difference between MP and BBE core technologies, Mach3Bass, and so on.

BBE is a company than not only produces algorithms for DAPs - they build hardware for studios, like the Sonic Maximizer (http://www.bbesound.com/products/maxim/882i.asp), which is used by a lot of artists/producers (http://www.bbesound.com/users/index.asp).

BBE algorithms work on compressed or uncompressed sound, lossless or lossy, doesn't matter which codec used. I use BBE core (set to 2) on FLAC, LAME -V 2 --vbr-new, OGG -q6 - because it adds a better soundstage to the music while listening with my IEMs (Ultimate Ears). I don't use it with my AKG headphones or my loudspeakers, because those do have their own soundstage.

The Crossfeed (http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/ManualMainMenu#Crossfeed) enhancement, that is built into Rockbox does a similar thing, feeding a filtered, delayed signal of the left audio to your right ear and vice versa, to increase soundstage.

I use Mach3Bass, because I'm a basshead - and it makes better, deeper, warmer, richer bass than one can achieve with a mere EQ.

Other people have different views about those technologies, but they have nothing to do with restoration of crappy sounding MP3s.

I do not use MP Enhance (the one algorithm which indeed does restoration) because I don't listen to crappy encoded audio in low bitrates.

Since you obviously didn't read the links I included in my previous post, here's some quotes:

BBE MP (Minimized Polynomial Non-Linear Compression) Process improves digitally compressed sound, such as MP3 audio, by restoring and enhancing the harmonics lost through compression. BBE MP works by generating harmonics from the source material, effectively recovering warmth, details and nuance.

BBE High Definition Sound is the core sound enhancement technology licensed by BBE Sound and featured in the BBE Sonic Maximizer range of professional audio signal processors. Other technologies licensed by BBE Sound into the consumer electronics market either incorporate this core technology or are optimized for best results when used with BBE High Definition Sound.

Because the BBE Sonic Maximizer range of professional audio processors is so popular among music and sound professionals, and the primary reason for visitors to bbesound.com, we first highlight the benefits of BBE High Definition Sound in terms of useage by musicians and sound professionals:

Natural Musical Realism - music has great "live presence". Unlike some "exciter" devices which add fatiguing artificial harmonics to the signal, BBE adds nothing artificial to the signal but instead restructures it to faithfully allow all the detail and nuance to be heard.

Full Frequency Operation - Highs frequencies are clearer, naturally brilliant and more finely detailed. Lows are tight, well defined and harmonically rich. All from a single processor with easy two-knob adjustment of the BBE process.

Speech intelligibility - Sound contractors know that vocal intelligibility is paramount to a successful PA installation and client satisfaction. No other audio processor brings natural clarity and crisp definition to the spoken word like BBE does. That's why BBE Sonic Maximizer processors can be found installed in PA systems ranging from the massive network in New York's JFK airport to the thousands of houses of worship around the world.

Electric and acoustic guitars - have sparkle, clarity and definition. BBE sound processing brings out the harmonic complexity and bite significantly increases cutting power. Each note of a chord becomes more distinct. Brings guitars out of the "mud".

Keyboards and synthesizers - take on new realism. Percussive and plucked sounds are clear and sharp, chords are rich and full-textured, each note in the chord retains its integrity.

Electric & acoustic basses - take on that rich, earthy "CD" sound. Five string players love what it does to the "B" string. Extremely tight, punchy bottom end with all the presence, clarity and bite of the top end.

Vocals - cut through the amplified instrument so you can be heard better. Lyrics of the sound are no longer "buried in the mix".

Improves effect processing - expands the spatial dimension of stereo reverb and chorus. Whether in an individual instrument rack or across a full mix, BBE makes a dramatic improvement in the quality of effects and neutralizes their tendency to muffle instrument and vocal characteristics.

Recording studios, home and professional - use BBE on individual tracks, mixdown, and of course in mastering, BBE brings out the full spectrum of sound. Mixes with BBE are fresh and sparkly. BBE gives you enough sparkle to restore instrument clarity or increase vocal intelligibility without appreciably adding level.

Broadcast clarity - broadcast facilities all over the the world depend on BBE for the best possible transmission quality. From huge operations such as Japan's NHK to local music stations such as Los Angeles' 94.7 The Wave, BBE has become a necessity for modern quality broadcast quality.

Many of the worlds most respected consumer electronic manufacturers have embraced BBE as the next leap forward in sound reproduction technology for many of the same reasons that made the BBE Sonic Maximizer processors the best-selling sound enhancement devices in the Pro Audio world.

Below we discuss how many of the same benefits to BBE High Definition Sound technology apply to the consumer electronics world, as well as some benefits largely unique to consumer electronic applications of BBE technology.

Natural Musical Realism - music has great "live presence" with BBE. The Hi-Fi experience, whether in your home, car, or on the go with personal audio, is becoming closer to the professional sound quality experienced at major concerts, thanks to BBE processing.

BBE is increasingly featured in the aftermarket car audio market, which is well known for its consumers demanding the highest quality sound. Respected manufacturers such as Alpine, Pioneer and JVC feature BBE in their car audio products. Professional car audio enthusiasts and installers alike look to BBE equipped components for success in car audio competitions worldwide.

Speech intelligibility - No other audio processor brings natural clarity and crisp definition to the spoken work like BBE can. That's why BBE is found in more and more televisions each year. With BBE, the spoken word can be heard clearly and easily, and at lower volume levels. This is particularly advantageous in high density living areas, such as apartment buildings. Senior living facilities are increasingly selecting televisions with BBE for this reason.

BBE is increasingly featured in televisions by the world's top makers, such as Sony, Panasonic, Hitachi and JVC.

Truly lifelike movie experience - expands the spatial dimension of the 5.1 experience like nothing else. Watching an action film on DVD through an A/V system featuring BBE is breathtaking, with sound effects such as jet planes or explosions becoming truly lifelike, not just loud. With BBE, details otherwise inaudible are revealed, such as the subtle movement of ice cubes in a glass held in an actors hand. This is a great example of why BBE's Pro Audio tag line is "Reveals All The Sound You've Never Heard."

Improves simulated "surround" effects - Most "surround sound" effects in televisions make sound "muddy", which causes listening fatiguing and necessitates higher volume levels to allow the viewer to comprehend speech. BBE works to maximize the spatial qualities of "surround sound" effects while maintaining the clarity and definition BBE is known for.

Consumer electronics manufacturers will soon be featuring the newly-released BBE ViVA, a sound enhancement technology which couples a special "surround sound" effect integrated with BBE High Definition Sound.

All music that is amplified through a loudspeaker suffers some loss of fidelity - or subtle distortions - caused by the inherent characteristics of the loudspeaker itself. The BBE system addresses these problems by compensating for phase and amplitude distortions and, in effect, delivering the signal to the speaker in a form which allows it to reproduce the original live performance more fully and more faithfully.

To understand how BBE sound processing technology works, consider the characteristics of a loudspeaker and what we expect from one. Among a loudspeaker's most important requirements is the ability to reproduce transients - the brief high-energy bursts at the beginning of sounds. The transients then evolve into harmonics. It is the particular amplitudes and phase relationships of these transients and harmonics which add the unique color and character to each sound.

Varying either the amplitude or the phase of the transients and harmonics within signal causes distortion of the sound's characteristics. By drastically altering the transient response of a sound, it's possible to make a cymbal crash seem like a car crash. Similarly, altering amplitude or phase relationships of the harmonics in a clarinet's tone can make it sound more like a flute, or a French horn like an oboe.

A loudspeaker's transient response is typically expressed in terms of amplitude response (how quickly it reacts to an incoming signal), with little or no regard to phase response (whether high and low frequencies are reproduced at the proper time). The ability to accurately represent a sound's phase and amplitude define the quality of a loudspeaker's transient and steady - state, or sustained, response.

If a loudspeaker's amplitude response curve were linear, then the relationship between the high and low frequencies would be correct. And if a loudspeaker's phase response curve were linear, then the low and high frequencies would reach the listener's ears in their correct time order. This would result in faithful reproduction of the sound. However, this isn't normally the case.

When we listen to live music, all of the highs and lows reach our ears in the same relationship to each other as when they were created by the instruments. If this same live music were to be recorded and played back through a loudspeaker system, the loudspeaker would introduce frequency-dependent phase shifting. The inductance of the speaker's voice coil creates a stronger impedance as the signal's frequency increases, resulting in a time delay. Consequently, frequency components with large negative phase shifts (high frequencies) arrive at the listener's ear later than signals undergoing small phase shifts (low frequencies). The resultant signal is distorted in the time domain to the listener's ear. Audio material containing sharp transients (e.g., percussive and plucked sounds such as drums, guitar, piano and harpsichord, etc.) suffers the most from this phenomenon, making it seem unfocused, or mushy.

In order to address these problems inherent in basic loudspeaker design, BBE Sound, Inc. has developed a circuit that has two primary functions. The first adjusts the phase relationships of the low, mid and high frequencies. Since a loudspeaker's natural tendency is to add progressively longer delay times to higher frequencies, the BBE sound processing system adds progressively longer delay times to lower frequencies. This creates a kind of "mirror" curve to the time delay curve created by the speaker, neutralizing its phase distortion.

The second major element in the BBE system is the augmentation of the higher and lower frequencies. Loudspeakers tend to be less efficient in their extreme treble and bass ranges. Most sound-reproducing systems include a circuit for boosting high and low frequencies, showing an accepted awareness of the loudspeaker's efficiency problem. The BBE system, however, provides a dynamic, program-driven augmentation which combines with the phase compensation feature to restore the brilliance and clarity of the original live sound. The result is, as one professional journal phrased it, "The most hearable advance in audio technology since high fidelity itself!"

BBE Mach3Bass electronically extends the bass response of a given loudspeaker and is capable of precise tuning at the specific low-end frequency desired. Assisted by the phase error correction technology of the world-renowned BBE process, BBE Mach3Bass provides deeper, tighter and more musically accurate bass frequencies than standard bass boost circuits. BBE Mach3Bass does not affect the mid-to-low range of the sound which, if altered, creates muddiness in the mid-low frequency range and also changes the character of voices.

The Mach3Bass process works by boosting a particular low frequency using a constant Q band pass at an optimized level. As a result, Mach3Bass processing provides acoustic output characteristics similar to bass reflex port tuning of a low frequency loudspeaker's enclosure. Mach3Bass does this electronically and more efficiently than port tuning, while protecting the loudspeaker from unnecessary cone excursion at very low frequencies.

BBE Mach3Bass is available to BBE consumer electronic licensees in both analog and digital solutions. BBE Mach3Bass has been successfully in use since 1999 in premium products from consumer electronics manufacturers including Sanyo and Sharp. The latest digital Mach3Bass extends the same benefits to digital products and is suitable for television, home audio / video, portable audio, car audio, headphone stereo and multimedia computer use.

Mach3Bass has powerful advantages over typical bass boost technologies:

Musical sounding - Mach3Bass does not affect mid-low frequencies, so the mid-low range remains clean and without the exaggerated "over boosted" sound typical of other bass boost technologies.

Tight and punchy bass- Mach3Bass never sounds "boomy" or "mushy".

Vocals unaltered - the timbre and overall character of human voices is unchanged by Mach3Bass.

Loudspeaker output efficiency - Mach3Bass allows the loudspeaker to maximize low frequency output by economizing cone motion. The loudspeaker wastes no effort in attempting to produce frequencies below the audible low frequency range.

Loudspeaker mechanical efficiency - since the low frequency loudspeaker is not burdened with excessive cone movement, the voice coil generates less heat and cone surrounds are subjected to less wear.

Amplifier efficiency - Mach3Bass maximizes low frequency output while minimizing the power requirement of the amplifier.

Deeper bass - Mach3Bass technology allows the loudspeaker to safely reproduce deeper bass, without risk of damaging the loudspeaker.

FishBowl
04-07-2006, 12:41
It was Fishbowl who said if it was open it would be easy to hack. I assert that just because something is open, it doesn't necessarily make it easy to hack. My example is AES and OpenPGP. Both are open yet neither has been hacked (at least to my knowledge).

If a project is open-source, you can easily read the code, so you can easily understand how the thing works. No need to do reverse engineering, that's why it is way much simpler.

Where am I wrong ?

GMan4911
04-07-2006, 14:22
Simpler to hack != simple to hack. But I understand your point. :)

tsayin
04-07-2006, 18:48
Um, it would be simple to hack an open source DRM, just edit the source so that instead of decoding and playing the file, it decrypts and saves it. Then run it.

GMan4911
04-07-2006, 19:12
I'm only talking about the decryption process. Not the DRM process. If you have an ecrypted file, all you need is the key/license to decrypt it. The decrypting code can be public, i.e. OpenPGP. The key structure for DRM license must be kept private because it is apparently more than just a decrypting key unlike the public/private key mechanism used by PGP. In addition to decrypting keys, it specifiies other things like copy control, metering, and other stuff like that.

afruff23
04-07-2006, 20:02
For those who are curious about what's required to implement Windows Media DRM, here's an overview (http://download.microsoft.com/download/3/a/f/3afb9301-5ade-4247-98ba-7a06efb75168/Introducing_Janus_and_Cardea.doc). Unfortunately, it looks like the licensing and royalties involved precludes the Rockbox team from implementing it for the X5.
Mot to mention that format is a DOC, Linux suers(such as the msot of the Rockbox devs) hate that as much as I do(even though I use XP). I hate when people store info in a proprietary format which always takes longer to load(i.e. pdf, doc, and to some extent flash).

In case you want to see the fees, here's the link (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/licensing/licensing.aspx)

LostPhil
04-09-2006, 09:05
I couldn't see this anywhere (and unfortunately haven't got the time to search extensively), but by how much is the battery life affected on a 20gb X5 (non-L)? How many hours can you get out of it only playing music on the standard rockbox settings and no EQ or effects?

boeselhack
04-10-2006, 04:32
I get out 10-12 hours on my "cover art patched" Rockbox with my X5L 30gb playing back only music. For now it's enough, but I would like to have more as with the original firmware ...

Arachnophilia
04-10-2006, 07:03
I get out 10-12 hours on my "cover art patched" Rockbox with my X5L 30gb playing back only music. For now it's enough, but I would like to have more as with the original firmware ...

10-12 hours on an L? jees.

boeselhack
04-10-2006, 08:40
jees.
What does "jees" mean? I'm an austrian ;-) Don't know the word.

TunsterX2
04-10-2006, 09:03
dfkt: At the end of the day, I know my fair bit about sound processing working in Radio Broadcasting. Also, I am aware of the BBE technologies you've just quoted.

IF you read the first sentence, there's a few key words there. They are core sound enhancement. We are not using BBEs DSPs for live studio recording. They are there to purely enhance (notice the word enhance the sound. The average joe is going to put 128kbps MP3s on this DAP. They are going to sound worse than the CD original. When you turn on the magic BBE DSPs, wow, good enhancement of the lossy sound. No way the near the original, but perfect for more than satisfactory listening.

You won't change my personal opinion about the intentions of BBE being there on Cowon's DAP range.

BBE algorithms work on compressed or uncompressed sound, lossless or lossy, doesn't matter which codec used.

They become more useless on uncompressed sound. You'd hope producers use this technology (or similiar) to bring out the finished product on CD and there would be no need to enhance the audio on uncompressed sound. I know I'm taking it off topic a lil, but, I've just got my mini-disc equipment back in use. I've recorded some CD stuff digitally directly onto MD. Anddddd, it sounds top notch compared with my M3. No DSPs needed except for a lil EQ boost.

Yes......... hard-core audiophiles like you take advantage of this technology with a different use/angle. But to the average joe, they wouldn't care, as long as it sounded adaquate.

Artificialharmony
04-10-2006, 09:27
I get out 10-12 hours on my "cover art patched" Rockbox with my X5L 30gb playing back only music. For now it's enough, but I would like to have more as with the original firmware ...


Until they sort that out I ain't going to rockbox just yet...

Arachnophilia
04-10-2006, 19:26
What does "jees" mean? I'm an austrian ;-) Don't know the word.

oh, a variant on "jeeze" or "jesus." in this case, an exclamation of something being overwhelmingly bad.

Yes......... hard-core audiophiles like you take advantage of this technology with a different use/angle. But to the average joe, they wouldn't care, as long as it sounded adaquate.

hard-core audiophiles don't expect the world out of a device not much bigger than an altoids tin. personally, i say screw flac, wav, and other "lossless" formats. i say screw cd's, too. my prefered format is vinyl. but that's just my preference, and it's not for everyone.

eq and (i would imagine) bbe effects provide some illusion of better quality, but the real quality can never really be made up for. for instance, i have at least two records from the early days of cd's, nine inch nails' "pretty hate machine" and tool's "undertow." the cd mix on both is kind of flat, but the mix on the vinyl is about a million times better. this is an extreme example (usually cd mixes are a lot better), but no amount of audio trickery can make cd/mp3/whatever recording of it sound as dynamic as the vinyl. and i'm willing to put with a little bit of a higher noise floor for it.

but, see, i understand that cd's and mp3's will never have the quality of vinyl. i realize that mp3's will never have the quality of cd's. and i'm not looking for a piece of high-fi stereo equipment here. i'm looking for something i can travel with, or listen to in art classes. it seems that a lot of this debate is because people want the best of both worlds. if you really want the quality, down to the last little bit, just make copies of your cd's and buy a cd player. if you want portability -- deal with mp3's.

that's how i see it anyways. audio enhancements are nice -- but i really just want the bass.

Until they sort that out I ain't going to rockbox just yet...

i've been looking at rockbox, and it looks cool. but it's incomplete -- i need a radio. i need the remote to work. if i do switch, i'm not doing it until rockbox is past that 1.0 mark, and has all of the features i'm buying the x5 for.

afruff23
04-10-2006, 23:04
Would a dual-boot be enough to make you people switch?

Arachnophilia
04-10-2006, 23:22
Would a dual-boot be enough to make you people switch?

*shrug* maybe. but really, a completed rockbox with all the comparable features of the standard firmware (at least) would do a better job of it. i'm not being impatient, though, take your time. i'd just rather have completed software here.

plus, i'd have to try the two first and compare. (my x5 is hopefully coming... hopefully)

Cowon-phile
04-11-2006, 02:15
Would a dual-boot be enough to make you people switch?
No. A reasonable battery-life would. I get 3-4 hours max running Rockbox on my 30GB X5 (non-L), which is understandable since the iAudio port is unrefined. Until then I'll stick to the official firmware, as bland and basic as it may be.

obijohn
04-11-2006, 10:56
No. A reasonable battery-life would.

Agreed 100%. Fixing this one issue would see adoption of Rockbox increase exponentially.