Why pay to have your X5 battery replaced? [Archive]

dh19440113@yahoo.com

02-19-2006, 20:25

Just a example, I have a ipod nano too and I change my battery to aftermarket li-polymer with 600mah compare to 330mah. I can play my music for twice as long about 28hours. The battery cost only $15 with $3.50 shipping.

I believe the same can be done with Iaudio. The battery only has a black - and red + wire very easy to weld. If only a compatible battery can be found, I might be able to install and post how i did it. :winker:

I am sure There are a pda, cell phone mp3 player that has the same size 3.7v li-ion. Just need you guys to keep your eye open .

dh19440113@yahoo.com

02-19-2006, 20:55

http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/3498/iaudiox5inside081em.th.jpg (http://img115.imageshack.us/my.php?image=iaudiox5inside081em.jpg)

It look like the size of a cordless phone battery.

johnanderson

02-19-2006, 21:31

it actually looks more like the 3g and 4g ipod battery. it might possibly be the same dimensions, but i wouldnt know. you could always buy a cheap ipod battery and see if it works.

Rianu

02-20-2006, 00:45

... and fry the player, when murphy has his say ...

dh19440113@yahoo.com

02-20-2006, 01:55

Ipod 4th gen battery is a bad choice, and here is the reason why.

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/1371/froogleimage0wp.th.jpg (http://img72.imageshack.us/my.php?image=froogleimage0wp.jpg)

As you can see, its not the same dimension as iaudio battery, its wider and thinner.

The battery has a three wire layout, white red black. Iaudio has red and black only.

To Rianu, A multimeter will insure that any new battery has the same voltage, current and hold the same or greater charge as the OEM battery. It won't fry a player if it pass the multimeter.

mogi

02-20-2006, 07:46

anyone willing to cut the shrinkwrap off their battery?

Biller

02-20-2006, 16:53

no but in May i might... my warranty runs out then, and i've been getting very sub-par battery life lately (less than 2 hours for wmas), although I'm going to get a battery from cowon before my warranty runs out.

dh19440113@yahoo.com

02-21-2006, 04:50

my x5 player lost a quarter of its charge 30 minute into playing.

I totally wish that i originally bought a iriver or zen. They have user replaceable battery. A third party battery on ebay cost only 20 bucks. :(

Sending the player to cowon will cost 50+shipping and take a least a month to get it back.

The battery hastle suddenly make this player alot less appealing.

mogi

02-21-2006, 07:01

trust me, you don't what the iRiver H10 20GB, I had one before the X5L, it was a pile of TRASH, plus only the 5/6GB players had user replacable batteries...

cmwilson

02-21-2006, 18:00

trust me, you don't what the iRiver H10 20GB, I had one before the X5L, it was a pile of TRASH

I second that. I too had the H10 20GB, which I returned to Amazon.com within the 30-day return period. It turned itself on and ran the battery down. It froze constantly, and sometimes was resettable and sometimes not. You have to reset it with something tiny, like a paper clip, and it turned out to be an essential tool. You couldn't settle down to listen to music without one. According to the iRiver forum at MisticRiver, these are common problems with the iRiver H10 20 GB players. I'm MUCH happier with my X5.

dh19440113@yahoo.com

02-21-2006, 19:56

thanks for the heads up, I heard I-river has great sound quality like iaudio, but turning itself on thats too much.

dh19440113@yahoo.com

02-21-2006, 20:09

You have to reset it with something tiny, like a paper clip, and it turned out to be an essential tool.

That remind me of my experience with my previous coby mpc941. Great player, 20gb and all. IT has a freeze problem though. It freeze once every month. I used a threading needle to reset the player, problem is the battery was in the way and i accidently poked a hole in the battery. :lol:

What kind of moron designed a player that has the battery cover over the reset button. There was no way for me to know this until i open the player and see that a hole extend all the way through the battery onto the reset button.

dh19440113@yahoo.com

02-21-2006, 22:12

http://www.cameronsino.net/mp3-battery.htm

If only there was a store that carry their iaudio battery?

Zeus's Uncle

02-21-2006, 22:20

i dunno, just having iaudio listed doesn't mean they have one for the x5. but it's a start. did you fill out their online order form?

ps - it would be nice if http://www.ipodbattery.com/ carried iaudio batteries, i had a friend use them for his ipod, worked like a charm

Edit: actually, I don't think they carry the iaudio battery. it's just listed, but no link like some of the others.

cmwilson

02-22-2006, 16:02

thanks for the heads up, I heard I-river has great sound quality like iaudio, but turning itself on thats too much.

I bought the iRiver based on reports of its excellent sound quality. IMO the iAudio X5's sound quality is much better. I bought Sennheiser PX-100 headphones to go with the iRiver, and was disappointed that they didn't sound as good as the reviews led me to believe. Then I got my X5, and suddenly the Sennheisers were great! Gotta be the player.

Getwired

02-22-2006, 16:47

Having had a few listens to friend's H10, and being a long time owner of the iHP-140, and now the X5, I can say without a doubt that it's definitely the player too, not just the headphones. (Well, duh!!!) With BBE and "MP3 Enhancement", the X5 sound is quite a bit better (fuller or warmer maybe) than my excellent-sounding iHP-140, with the same headphones. I'm not glad my iHP-140 got smushed, but I'm definitely glad I've got the X5 and some phat IEMs. And BBE is like friggin' magic pixie dust for those one or two crappy-sounding MP3's you might be carrying around. Always wished my iRiver had BBE (http://www.bbesound.com/technologies/BBE%5FHDS/).

I know it doesn't have anything to do with an X5 battery, but hey, since you brought it up... :winker:

dh19440113@yahoo.com

02-23-2006, 01:07

So basically Iriver went a step backward with H10. The players unstable, doesn't sound to great and looks mediocre compare to x5.

I use audiotechnica earbuds ath-7m titanium on the road, and ethmotic er6 at home. Best two pair earbuds ever with x5.:jamming:

SaHO_G_

02-23-2006, 01:17

yeah they say "greatness skips a generation" and thats what iriver did. Back to the subject at hand, does the wires for the x5 battery need to be soldered, or just plugged in?

dh19440113@yahoo.com

02-23-2006, 01:18

"MP3 Enhancement", the X5 sound is quite a bit better (fuller or warmer maybe) :

I agree, Iaudio x5 sound great as good or better than my nano. "MP3 Enhancement" meaning better sound processor like 24bit Hi Fi maybe?:bigthumbs

dh19440113@yahoo.com

02-23-2006, 01:19

Back to the subject at hand, does the wires for the x5 battery need to be soldered, or just plugged in?

Soldered, Most definitely:woh:

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/3794/iaudiox5inside095gh.th.jpg (http://img96.imageshack.us/my.php?image=iaudiox5inside095gh.jpg)

SaHO_G_

02-23-2006, 08:26

since it does need to be soldered, cant other types of batteries work? like an ipods even?

mogi

02-23-2006, 11:45

the battery has to have the same voltage rating, be made of the same material (lithium polymer I think), and fit in the same dimensions so the case can shut

GMan4911

02-23-2006, 11:54

the battery has to have the same voltage rating, be made of the same material (lithium polymer I think), and fit in the same dimensions so the case can shut
The owner's manual says it's a lithium ion battery.

SaHO_G_

02-23-2006, 21:58

Zeus's Uncle

02-23-2006, 22:32

wait, lithium-ion-polymer is better than lithium-ion? not really. the polymer was basically a way to slim the profile of lithium-ion for use in cell phones. but since then, the profile of lithium-ion batteries has shrunk, and the lithium-ion is better than the lithium-ion-polymer in almost every way. lithium-ion-polymer's only real advantage is it can be made super-thin, but lithium-ion gets thin enough for any DAP applications.

Zeus's Uncle

02-23-2006, 22:37

As for replacing the battery with a battery made with a different chemistry, no, you can't do that. You *might* be able to use a lithium ion polymer, but that would be more expensive, so you won't do that. You simply cannot use a nickel based battery, it requires a different charge algorithm.

Ian_Locke

02-23-2006, 22:56

has anyone tried the rockbox development team? I am positive they have taken an X5 apart to see the insides. also, they have a lot of pictures, if anyone cares to look at it... http://forums.rockbox.org/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=7
(appears to be offline at the moment...)

the guy you would want to talk to (or attempt) is LinusNielsenFeltzing (http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/LinusNielsenFeltzing)

just trying to help...

dh19440113@yahoo.com

02-25-2006, 16:37

yeah although Li+ Polymer is better quality, i dont think it would hurt it. Im no electrical engineer (far from my major) but i dont think anywhere on the motherboard that says "i want only Li+". Anybody can touch on the subject and tell me how wrong i could be?

Lithium ion poly has heavier resistance. Therefore, devices made for polymer battery doesn't have to worry to much about over charging, the electric device usually charge the polymer battery with twice as much current as li-ion, which means faster recharge time.

X5 can take li-poly with no apparent advantages, however, li-poly devices in most case can't take li-ion due to overcharging of the battery.:winker:

Wolfen

02-25-2006, 21:10

wait, lithium-ion-polymer is better than lithium-ion? not really.

I thought lithium-ion-polymer maintained a longer service life than lithium ion (not charges but shelf life longevity)?

SaHO_G_

02-25-2006, 22:25

cellphones use li polymer and those last years, my old phone was 2 years old and the battery was still strong, and always on standby i rarely shut it off.

Zeus's Uncle

02-25-2006, 23:28

I thought lithium-ion-polymer maintained a longer service life than lithium ion (not charges but shelf life longevity)?

If you mean shelf life, like if you put it on a shelf and never used it, I'm not sure. However, cycle life is probably the best measure for a battery in use.

cellphones use li polymer and those last years, my old phone was 2 years old and the battery was still strong, and always on standby i rarely shut it off.

cell phones use the polymer because of it's spacial attributes, it can be made really thin and flexible. these batteries likely last longer than laptop batteries due to their treatment. increased temperature is not as much of a problem with a cell phone and they could be exposed to better charge & storage patterns.

the polymer's pros are basically just physical attributes, thinner, lighter, more flexible. other than that, it falls behind regular lithium-ion in pretty much all other things, cost, charge density, cycle life, etc.

Fido

02-26-2006, 00:33

Zeus's Uncle

02-26-2006, 01:40

Are we on any track to figuring this out? I've noticed my battery isn't lasting as long as it used to. I'm not going to replace it any time soon, but I'd like to know if I could do this myself. Also, are better batteries coming out? I'd like to replace it with an even better battery. And is there any source to find out what brand/model battery the X5 is stocked with?

We need someone to take apart their player, cut the wrapping off the battery and inspect it. That would definitely help us find out more about it. I'm still under warranty, so I'm not going to do that any time soon.

johnanderson

02-26-2006, 12:52

im sure the guys at rockbox have done it. has anyone contacted them?

Zeus's Uncle

02-26-2006, 14:55

http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/IaudioX5HardwareComponents

That's what they have done.

johnanderson

02-26-2006, 15:19

hmmm. seems odd that they havent done the battery yet since that would probably be one of the easiest things to do.

Getwired

02-26-2006, 15:26

Easy enough, yes, but for the purposes of reverse engineering the circuit board for porting RockBox, do they really care a whole lot about the battery? I mean, isn't that just an assumption that they'd make -- that the battery is there and is electrically connected and will therefore do it's job? They might care about how it gets charged and how to monitor the current charge "level", but I'm not sure they'd give a hoot about the make / model.

Am I wrong?

But, yes, the member who took those pictures might have easily taken a few of the battery. Wasn't it someone from iaudiophile.net who took those pics and sent them in? I think it was some dude who fixed an X5 with a smoked charging circuit who was looking for a service manual -- I may be wrong tho... I think it was Coolhawk. Check here (http://iaudiophile.net/forums/showthread.php?t=7015&highlight=service+manual).

dh19440113@yahoo.com

02-26-2006, 15:45

http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/2403/dmpx202bn.th.jpg (http://img361.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dmpx202bn.jpg)

Getwired

02-26-2006, 16:06

^-- Two free PMS pills with every battery purchase.

Little. Yellow. Different.
:lol:

Wolfen

02-26-2006, 16:37

If you mean shelf life, like if you put it on a shelf and never used it, I'm not sure. However, cycle life is probably the best measure for a battery in use.

The iRiver crowd always crooned that the H1xx series used lithium polymer batteries vs. the standard lithium ion (like Apple).

I think the charge cycles are the same...but we all know that a lot of these fade away before we ever hit the stated amount of charge cycles the manufacturers promise. For instance, I've had NiMH batteries 3 years old with only about 25 cycles on them that decide to give it up (even though I followed all of the maintenace rules).

The lithium polymers were supposedly better at "keeping it going" for a longer period of time. On average (looking at other forums), the iRiver polymer batteries seem to last about a year+ longer than their Apple lithium ion counterparts.

Zeus's Uncle

02-26-2006, 18:33

taking a picture of of the battery, sure easy, but not necessary for firmware development. we already have pictures of the battery, here on iaudiophile, linked in the newbie faq and below in this post. what we don't have, is someone who has taken it apart and fully inspected it for the purpose of trying to find a battery replacement. as i said, i am not willing to void my warranty to do this. maybe once my warranty expires, but that's quite a ways off.

http://www.iaudiophile.net/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=11

Zeus's Uncle

02-26-2006, 19:06

The iRiver crowd always crooned that the H1xx series used lithium polymer batteries vs. the standard lithium ion (like Apple).

I think the charge cycles are the same...but we all know that a lot of these fade away before we ever hit the stated amount of charge cycles the manufacturers promise. For instance, I've had NiMH batteries 3 years old with only about 25 cycles on them that decide to give it up (even though I followed all of the maintenace rules).

The lithium polymers were supposedly better at "keeping it going" for a longer period of time. On average (looking at other forums), the iRiver polymer batteries seem to last about a year+ longer than their Apple lithium ion counterparts.

Everything I've read about lithium ion polymer batteries (outside of forums, at places like battery univeristy and batteries wholesale, etc) has claimed that the polymer's advantages are mostly spacial (thiner, lighter, flexible). It's important to distinguish between theoretical or high temperture solid polymers and the polymers that are used in the batteries of cell phones and other devices. The ones on the consumer market are actually hybrids, and contain a gel; they are not dry polymers. In the past couple years, manufacturers of the polymer batteries have claimed charge cycles comparable to regular lithium ion batteries. The polymer is more expensive to produce and thus has a higher cost-to-energy ratio. The future of batteries could likely see the polymer version replacing the regular lithium ion (especially when you consider that in addition to spacial advantages, there are some safety advantages), but there is still work to be done to make them as cost-efficient as regular lithium-ion.

Fido

02-26-2006, 21:13

I don't see why it should be a secret or anything, can't we just ask Cowon? I sent Cowon america an e-mail asking, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't tell us.

Zeus's Uncle

02-26-2006, 22:49

I don't see why it should be a secret or anything, can't we just ask Cowon? I sent Cowon america an e-mail asking, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't tell us.

They sell them, so they probably aren't going to give you a list of competitors and their pricing on different models that you might be able to fit in there. It's not progressive insurance.

Fido

02-26-2006, 23:38

Well I doubt replacing batteries is a huge part of their income. I would assume they have the service if people want it, but not force everyone into using it.

I have a question though, what does the green sleeve thing do? Since a non official replacement probably wouldn't have one.

dh19440113@yahoo.com

02-27-2006, 02:40

I have a question though, what does the green sleeve thing do? Since a non official replacement probably wouldn't have one.

Unlike nicd/nimh, Li-ion/poly have small circuits attach to them. The sleeve wrap the entire package together circuit and battery. Could be a recifier not sure.

dh19440113@yahoo.com

02-27-2006, 03:29

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/7940/168383ju.th.jpg (http://img525.imageshack.us/my.php?image=168383ju.jpg)

dh19440113@yahoo.com

03-04-2006, 04:06

anyone got any new input ??
This thread has been so quiet its as good as dead.:blah:

mogi

03-04-2006, 08:23

no one is willing to rip open their battery pack to see what cells are used

black_box

03-04-2006, 11:18

Whos the guy that decided to take apart his mp3 player, examine the battery and not get the dimensions? A 3.7v lithium polymer of its approximate size is NOT hard to find. I still have 8 months of warranty left and it really doesnt seem that valuable...probably going to pull this apart one day when Im bored, measure it up and replace the battery.

Zeus's Uncle

04-07-2006, 15:32

dj_bijo

04-07-2006, 17:14

it's not the same void.....
rockbox u can always uninstall if the player breaks...

Zeus's Uncle

04-07-2006, 17:24

it's not the same void.....
rockbox u can always uninstall if the player breaks...

Wow, um, voided is voided. You don't partially void your warranty. What you mean is it is easier to lie about installing hacked firmware when you claim your warranty service illegally. Even if the breakage is unrelated to how you voided your warranty, it's still void.

dj_bijo

04-07-2006, 17:47

Zeus's Uncle

04-07-2006, 17:56

no....u don't lie.....u just don't tell....
and there's no way to know....
and it shouldn't even void.....
if cowon could make their own decent firmware with all the common fetures no one will have to install rockbox....but it has alot of necessery fetures...
and also i believe alot of ppl have used h3mod which is the same thing

whether or not it should is a matter of opinion. as a matter of fact, it does, that's the law.

lie
n.
1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.

"just not telling" is what is called a lie of omission, it falls into the second definition, and it's also illegal. Rationalize it all you want, but you've already admitted it voids the warranty, but you were mistaken in thinking that there are different types of voiding.

Edit:
"The more things a man is ashamed of, the more respectable he is."

- George Bernard Shaw

Zeus's Uncle

04-07-2006, 17:57

Back on topic . . .

So now that a bunch of people are voiding the warranty and putting rockbox on their players, would any of you be willing to open up your player and answer the questions we've come up with? Like measuring the dimensions of the battery, peeling off the green wrapping and seeing what, if anything, is written on the pack? Take a bunch of pics & post, etc.

GMan4911

04-07-2006, 18:46

and it's also illegal
Well, maybe unethical.... Lying is only illegal if you're under oath. :)

The terms of the US warranty does say it's void if the unit has been disassembled but doesn't say anything about loading unauthorized software. Though I suppose if the heat problem that people are reporting is due to the CPU being overdriven and the CPU gets burned out, they could refuse warranty service.

Zeus's Uncle

04-07-2006, 19:08

The warranty says this:

This warranty does not apply: (a) to damage caused by accident, abuse, misuse, misapplication, or non-COWON America, Inc. products; (b) to damage caused by service performed by anyone other than COWON America, Inc.; (c) to a product or a part that has been modified without the written permission of COWON America, Inc.; or (d) if any COWON America, Inc. serial number has been removed or defaced.

Hacked firmware falls under (c) unless you have written permission. Anyone have written permission? As you can see, it doesn't matter if the firmware is the cause, you've modified it without permission.

The warranty is a legal contract. Lying about breaking the warranty to get free service is a breach of contract, a.k.a. illegal.

afruff23

04-07-2006, 19:15

I don't get C. It's a bit too broad. So if I put files on my X5, then my warranty is void? Either they meant it to be very broad, or very specific(i.e. add a PHYSICAL object to it, that is not normal like a larger LCD).

GMan4911

04-07-2006, 19:24

Hmmm, my warranty card doesn't say anything like that. I wonder which applies - what's posted on the website or what came with the product?

afruff23

04-07-2006, 19:34

If you wanted to, then you could rpobably prove in court that installign Rockbox on your X5 does not void the warranty if what you say is true GMan. But since that costs more than a new X5, just reinstall the old firmware just in case when sending back.

Zeus's Uncle

04-07-2006, 23:39

Common sense and even the websites themselves warn that warranties will be voided when installing rockbox, h3mod's, or other firmware hacks. Whether or not you wish to use them while under warranty, and whether or not your ethics are grey enough to claim warranty service after using hacked firmware is just determined by your character.

Fin.

So, think we can get back to topic now?

So now that a bunch of people are voiding the warranty and putting rockbox on their players, would any of you be willing to open up your player and answer the questions we've come up with? Like measuring the dimensions of the battery, peeling off the green wrapping and seeing what, if anything, is written on the pack? Take a bunch of pics & post, etc.

afruff23

04-08-2006, 02:19

In the world of business, there is no such thing as common sesne. The disclaimer should have came packaged with the product itself, not on a site or at least mention that full warrnty details are avaliable at a certain site. From the rockbox.org X5 forums you can find some good info about the battery(both X5 and X5L). There are specific topics about the battery.

Zeus's Uncle

04-08-2006, 02:34

I guess not. I'm really trying to revive this topic as it hasn't been resolved but people keep getting hung up this stupid warranty stuff. This is the last post I'll put on that subject.

1. If any defect arises under normal conditions of use

That's the first part of the terms in my yellow sheet that came with my device. I'm sure we can all agree, hacked firmware is not normal conditions.

So I'll try quoting my questions for a third time. Can we please get back on topic? This is about trying to find out the specifications and dimensions of the battery in order to find suitable replacements.

So now that a bunch of people are voiding the warranty and putting rockbox on their players, would any of you be willing to open up your player and answer the questions we've come up with? Like measuring the dimensions of the battery, peeling off the green wrapping and seeing what, if anything, is written on the pack? Take a bunch of pics & post, etc.

johnanderson

04-09-2006, 02:32

most peoples warrenties should be over relatively soon so maybe within a couple months someone will open up their x5 and measure

afruff23

04-09-2006, 10:29

If you really want to know, then go to the rockbox IRC channel and ask them since they have the pics and probably know the battery size as well.

dave trouser

04-09-2006, 17:56

So now that a bunch of people are voiding the warranty and putting rockbox on their players, would any of you be willing to open up your player and answer the questions we've come up with? Like measuring the dimensions of the battery, peeling off the green wrapping and seeing what, if anything, is written on the pack? Take a bunch of pics & post, etc.

Please, nobody take apart the battery unless you really know what you're doing! If you manage to expose the cells to oxygen, you'll wish you had asbestos hands and a welding mask for a face. There isn't any good reason to take that wrapping off anyway. Li-Ion cells are 3.6V. So all you need to do is determine the voltage on the red and black wires. So, a voltage of 3.6V will mean the battery pack has just one cell.

Also, anyone replacing the X5 battery themselves - be extra careful not to short out the two battery wires. It's far worse than shorting out any other type of battery, and the high current causes the formation of oxygen in the cells, which leads to the battery burning up rapidly, and you most likely won't be able to put it out until it's all burnt up.

For some detailed info on Li-Ion/Poly battery construction, and for safety info, see here:

http://www.electronics-lab.com/articles/Li_Ion_reconstruct/

Zeus's Uncle

04-09-2006, 18:22

I'm not advocating taking the battery apart. I'm advocating opening the x5, and getting as much information as possible about that battery and the place it fits. Physical dimensions, manufacturer and part number, etc. That's the reason for peeling off the green wrapper, to see what, if any identifying marks are there.

The point here, is not to rebuild, but replace. But . . . nice link.

madmike1029

04-09-2006, 19:00

Please, nobody take apart the battery unless you really know what you're doing! If you manage to expose the cells to oxygen, you'll wish you had asbestos hands and a welding mask for a face. There isn't any good reason to take that wrapping off anyway. Li-Ion cells are 3.6V. So all you need to do is determine the voltage on the red and black wires. So, a voltage of 3.6V will mean the battery pack has just one cell.

Also, anyone replacing the X5 battery themselves - be extra careful not to short out the two battery wires. It's far worse than shorting out any other type of battery, and the high current causes the formation of oxygen in the cells, which leads to the battery burning up rapidly, and you most likely won't be able to put it out until it's all burnt up.

For some detailed info on Li-Ion/Poly battery construction, and for safety info, see here:

http://www.electronics-lab.com/articles/Li_Ion_reconstruct/

can't the battery be of a different voltage however, my Motorola Razr V3c has a battery that is 3.7v and is Li-Ion....ofcourse this can be too measure using a multimeter, anyone have any idea the mah of the better?

afruff23

04-09-2006, 19:20

Li-ion Prismatic 3.6/3.7 volts. Li-ion Polymer 3.6 volts. Taken from the article.

madmike1029

04-09-2006, 19:46

Li-ion Prismatic 3.6/3.7 volts. Li-ion Polymer 3.6 volts. Taken from the article.

ah ic, interesting. so anyone know which the x5 uses? i would be assuming the std li-ion, and not the polymer but i could be wrong.

Zeus's Uncle

04-09-2006, 19:56

also in the article: Typical operation voltage 2,8V to 4,2V

madmike1029

04-10-2006, 22:05

Does anyone happen to know the dimensions of the battery, i know that know one checked out to see the details of the battery (voltage and mah and what not) but specific dimensions could help to atleast get an idea of what it might be similar to.

KiB

04-11-2006, 07:49

i'll crank mine open soon as i get and report back!

Arachnophilia

04-11-2006, 08:37

i'll crank mine open soon as i get and report back!

you're just eager to void that warranty, ain't ya?

KiB

04-11-2006, 08:42

you're just eager to void that warranty, ain't ya?

yea, i'm hopin UPS leaves it in the door so i can kick it down the steps soon as i get home!

Getwired

04-11-2006, 11:08

yea, i'm hopin UPS leaves it in the door so i can kick it down the steps soon as i get home!Dude , your sig is a friggin riot! :lol: I love it!

KiB

04-11-2006, 11:19

Dude , your sig is a friggin riot! :lol: I love it!

thanks, i'll be here all week.

Getwired

04-11-2006, 11:37

Yeah, and "try the veal". :bigsmile: What's funny is the mental picture I get from your sig reminds me of Odd Todd (http://www.oddtodd.com/). Absolutely hilarious flash cartoons -- watch 'em if you have some time! :lol:
(http://www.oddtodd.com/)

KiB

04-11-2006, 11:38

Yeah, and "try the veal". :bigsmile:

nah manj, that shit is cruel.

but stick around for Eddie Money.

GMan4911

04-11-2006, 21:47

Looks like someone post some info on the battery here (http://eng.iaudio.com/zeroboard/zboard.php?id=B05&page=1&sn1=&divpage=1&bmenu=board&sn=off&ss=on&sc=on&select_arrange=headnum&bmenu=board&desc=asc&no=25467&bmenu=board). The interesting bit is he thinks there is at least 3-4 mm extra space around the battery so we might be able to get a higher capacity replacement. That would be really sweet!

According to Amazon, the dimensions should be ~ 34mm x 53mm x 5mm.

Zeus's Uncle

04-11-2006, 22:37

nice find, i just skimmed this thread, but didn't see mention of what the nominal capacity is for the x5 and the x5l. do we know these off hand? i don't have my documentation at hand, but will look through that when i do.

GMan4911

04-11-2006, 22:49

Capacity was posted in this thread (http://www.iaudiophile.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8321&highlight=950mah)

Zeus's Uncle

04-11-2006, 22:53

According to Amazon, the dimensions should be ~ 34mm x 53mm x 5mm.
Is that for the x5 or the x5l?

GMan4911

04-11-2006, 22:55

The guy said he opened his X5.

madmike1029

04-12-2006, 20:14

what was the post from this guy, i looked at amazon but can't seem to find it

GMan4911

04-12-2006, 21:08

Reread the post. He said the battery was the same physical size as the Nokia BL-5C. I got the dimensions for the battery off of Amazon.

madmike1029

04-12-2006, 21:50

Reread the post. He said the battery was the same physical size as the Nokia BL-5C. I got the dimensions for the battery off of Amazon.
ah i gotcha. ok so just for reference so that we have the info on here (incase the other threads/pages go down seems these are the specs as of thus far:

X5l = 2250mAh
X5 = 950mAh
X5 battery size = ~ 34mm x 53mm x 5mm

what we need now then would be the correct voltage (most likely 3.6v or 3.7v) and than the amperage rating correct?

GMan4911

04-12-2006, 22:21

madmike1029

04-12-2006, 23:15

Are Li-Ion batteries of that size available in any other voltage?

Based on what we know and if his measurements are correct and there really is 3-4mm of space around the battery, based on this Li-Ion table (http://www.ibt-power.com/Battery_packs/Li_Ion/Lithium_ion_cells.html), it might be possible to go up to a 1200mAh battery.

However, the guy didn't say what size hard drive he has. The 20 and 30gb drives are 5mm thick while the 60gb drive is 8mm thick.
i too looked into the sizes and saw the same thing, but wouldn't a 1200 be too thick? I think the closes would be 1050 at 6.4mm i think and that is only if there is 1.4m room. unless there enough spacing in there for ~8mm thick battery i dunno if 1200 will work (unless somewhere else has one that thin. hopefully though.)

that is a good point however with the hdd, it could be any number of those. but is the hdd located like ontop/underneath the battery or next to it (ie would it make a difference in battery size)

GMan4911

04-12-2006, 23:44

If, by 3-4mm space around the battery, he's refering to the thickness and not width/length, the 1200mAh battery should fit. I think we still need someone to open it up. :)

afruff23

04-12-2006, 23:46

I still don't understand. We need three measurements for 3 different models:
1. Space available for battery in X5L
2. Space available for battery in 60 gig X5
3. Space available for battery in 20/30 gig X5(since the dual platter 60 gig has a bigger hard drive, and has the case of the X5L)

If only the X5 was longer(physically) (http://www.shop.com/op/aprod-p38007251?sourceid=3)
Dimensions for that battery: 169 mm x 49 mm x 8 mm
And it's only about $50. How much would the X5L battery cost approximately if bought separately?

Isn't the X59and X5l) battery Li-Ion POLYMER? I'm not sure if normal Li-Ion will work(most likely will). But polymer type batteries have smaller dimensions than normal Li-Ion batteries. To meet the physical requirement for a replacemnt, look for polymer types, not normal li-ion batteries.

afruff23

04-13-2006, 00:10

ah i gotcha. ok so just for reference so that we have the info on here (incase the other threads/pages go down seems these are the specs as of thus far:

X5l = 2250mAh
X5 = 950mAh
X5 battery size = ~ 34mm x 53mm x 5mm

what we need now then would be the correct voltage (most likely 3.6v or 3.7v) and than the amperage rating correct?
I don't think you need an amperage rating. I'm not sure, but that's a variable that depends on the state of the battery. When you look up batteries, they usually just give voltage, mAh rating, and dimensions. I really need the voltage rating as well to find something useful. Normal Li-ion batteries are usually 3.6 or 3.7 V, but li-ion polymer batteries vary greatly. Right now, I'm looking at a 11.1 V li-ion poly 2450 mAh battery.

GMan4911

04-13-2006, 00:14

Based on the photos of the 20gb X5 here (http://www.iaudiophile.net/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=11), the battery and hard drive are stacked. It looks like there might be room for a bigger battery in the width/length dimensions.

More photos of the PCB here (http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/IaudioX5Info)

GMan4911

04-13-2006, 00:17

I believe the battery for the X5 is Li-Ion. Don't know about the X5L.

afruff23

04-13-2006, 00:53

X5: 950 mAh LiIon Polymer
X5L: 2250 mAh LiIon Polymer

Taken from here (http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/DeviceChart#iAudio_units)

madmike1029

04-13-2006, 01:14

X5: 950 mAh LiIon Polymer
X5L: 2250 mAh LiIon Polymer

Taken from here (http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/DeviceChart#iAudio_units)
wow never even noticed that on their site. maybe they have some info we need. and as far as i understand the voltage and amps would be needed cause if you have more amps than the item runs on u can cause damage, like wise if it isn't enough u can. same goes for volts.

Gary.Morris

04-13-2006, 09:20

Let's put some things to rest...
Old Li-Ion or new Li-Ion Polymer...makes no difference. Polymer will have a greater range of physical size (main advantage)
Standard Li-Ion/Li-Ion Polymer cell => ~3.6-3.7v Only different voltage i know about is the new Li-Ion Manganese cells used in my Milwaukee Power Tools...7 cells @ 4.0V = 28V
Amperage: Depends on the load...any battery on the market should be able to supply enough current.

Keys are mAH rating...they range based normally on quality. Higher the better unless it's based on an unrealistic discharge rate.

GaryM

Zeus's Uncle

04-13-2006, 13:28

Huh, I wonder why Cowon's website says the x5's use Lithium-ion, and not the polymer.

afruff23

04-13-2006, 20:11

All I'm saying is that if you want a long-lastign battery, then you need to look for Li-Ion polymer batteries not Li-ion. You can find li-ion batteries that will fit in the x5 but they will have a much lower mAh rating than a lithium-ion polymer battery of the same size.

GMan4911

04-13-2006, 20:14

But can the current adapter/charger charge polymer batteries?

afruff23

04-13-2006, 20:21

@Gary Morris
Right now, I'm looking at a 11.1 V li-ion poly 2450 mAh battery.
Better to be safe than sorry.
When you assume, you...(well you know the saying)

If the battery is in fact 3.7 V, then check out this link (http://www.ibt-power.com/Battery_packs/Li_Polymer/Lithium_polymer_cells.html)

madmike1029

04-13-2006, 20:45

I am not too familar with the polymer batteris but doesn't it require a higher power/amp charger in order to work right. maybe i read that wrong.

in any other sense however from the list posted i fail to see any plolymer batteries that meet the size constraints that are of a higher mah rating that 1250, now this is better than what i have seen for the standard li-ion however it is questionable if the polymer battery will even work without damage.

afruff23

04-13-2006, 20:49

That's the reason the X5L has bigger dimensions...

madmike1029

04-13-2006, 20:59

That's the reason the X5L has bigger dimensions...

yes i understand that, 1250 would be a nice improvement over the 950 currently in place, but that is only if the battery is indeed a polymer. there seems to be a mixed consensus a bit and b4 anything can be done we need to be certain.

how would we be able to tell the difference? would it say or is there like a tell tale sign about it?

another questions, does the battery inside the x5 have a built in protection circuit or is that part of the x5 board itself. reason i ask is the sizes based on that list are for the bare cells and not including the protection circuit. if the battery on the x5 has the circuit built in and not on the board then that 1250 definatly will be too big when set up with the built in protection circuit.

amb7247

04-18-2006, 00:24

This is starting to making me second guess if I should get an I-Audio x5. I was thiniking about getting a 60GB based off of the double platter but without knowing if there is a suitable battery replacement I wonder if I should get one, use the battery for a year then hope for the best if a battery is available.

Kind of sort of have to sin the iRiver H340 is discontinued and you can't find them anywhere. :woh:

afruff23

04-18-2006, 19:13

Instead, you could get one of those new single platter 1.8" 40 GB drives and put it in an X5L 20 GB. Then sell the 20 GB drive.

GMan4911

04-18-2006, 21:29

I don't understand what the obsession is for getting a battery with a 35 hour charge. Is it realistic to not have an available outlet for that long a time?

Diego

04-18-2006, 21:43

I don't understand what the obsession is for getting a battery with a 35 hour charge. Is it realistic to not have an available outlet for that long a time?

I think that most of the people that are concerned with battery life are the normal X5 users, like me. If I had an X5L, trust me, 20+ hours is good for me. Unfortunatley I get 6-8 hours on my normal X5 that's advertised to play for 14 hours.

I'm guessing you have an X5L, so its not a problem for you. I, however, along with many other X5 users, aren't happy with the battery life. Trust me, If we had 35 HOURS of battery life, we would not be complaining.

Zeus's Uncle

04-18-2006, 22:06

Well, I'm not so concerned with getting 35 hours, but it would be nice to know what aftermarket batteries I could put in my player. The battery life should degrade significantly even with proper care after 3 years. Chances are, there are times when we all don't care for it perfectly. Usually, on these devices the first thing to go is the battery, there was that whole anti-ipod campaign a couple years ago with guys going around NYC and spray painting "the truth" on their street side ads. Unfortunately, the x5 has a joystick which is known to be a little problematic and may go before the battery but after the warranty expires.

Either way, it would be good to just have the specs of what's needed in order to replace or upgrade the battery.

GMan4911

04-19-2006, 00:05

I'm guessing you have an X5L, so its not a problem for you. I, however, along with many other X5 users, aren't happy with the battery life. Trust me, If we had 35 HOURS of battery life, we would not be complaining.
Actually, I have the 60gb. I charge it every couple days or so. 8-10 hours of usage between charges is acceptable to me because I always have an outlet nearby. I'm sure 99% of all owners have access to a power outlet everyday for at least the 3-4 hours needed to charge the unit. So what's the big deal if, worse case scenario, you have to charge it everyday? And it's not like you can't listen while it's charging...

The reason I pose the question is that there seems to be far too many people agonizing over whether to get the 60gb or go for a unit with a 35 hour charge. The fact that they're even considering the 60gb unit means capacity is an important criteria. With that in mind, I think it is far easier, cheaper, and more realistic to get a higher capacity battery (maybe not 35 hour but 15-20 hours might be possible) to fit the 60gb X5 case than getting a 60gb hard drive to fit in a X5L case, at least for the near future. Also, the 80gb drive will fit in the 60gb case if you need even more capacity. To me it's a no brainer.

afruff23

04-19-2006, 00:27

I want to be able to replace the battery when it degrades(X5L 20 gig). I know it'll be a while before my battery's life bceomes bad, but I still want the security. Plus, what if you could repalce the battery with something with an even HIGHER capcity than the X5L battery?

GMan4911

04-19-2006, 04:08

Being able to replace the battery with an even higher capacity battery than the X5L battery would be nice but not critical because as I said earlier, for me, 8 to 10 hours per charge is plenty. A year from now, I know that my music collection will be larger so the extra space is higher priority for me. Plus, I have much higher confidence that a 15-20 hour battery that fits the 60gb case will happen sooner than a 60gb+ drive for the X5L case. Plus, the upgrade will be cheaper.

Koijima

04-19-2006, 14:37

I have an X5l for a year now and I'm positive I've haven't charged it over 30 times (usually takes 2-3 weeks to power down). I use it on the drive to and from work, during work (sometimes) and most times I go out. I always have an outlet near me but I just like to know that my iaudio is ready to go even when I've forgotten to charge it (happens a lot), or when I'm traveling for hours and hours, or at the gym.

That being said the only minus in having the X5L instead of the X5 is the thickness with the zCover; annoying but not too vexxing.

My battery hasn't gone bad on me, although it's hard to tell since it lasts so long and I only charge it when it's completely dead. But when it does I'm planing an HD upgrade (to 80 gigs just to mess with the Ipod people in my life and to use for storage) but I'd like to know how to replace my battery (with an even better one if possible).

To the point, I'm pretty sure my warrenty will be up by that time so if I open my X5L and tear open the battery wrapping and still can't find a replacement will Iaudio still replace my battery?

Zeus's Uncle

04-19-2006, 14:48

My battery hasn't gone bad on me, although it's hard to tell since it lasts so long and I only charge it when it's completely dead.

Only charging it when it is completely dead will shorten the lifespan of lithium based batteries. It prefers partial discharges to full depletions.

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm

Koijima

04-19-2006, 15:00

ZOMG, well good to know now! Thanks! Well not fully dead, it powers up then tells me low battery so I think there's some charge left, I should have said almost depleted. Still, all the more reason to know if in case I can't find a replacement battery will iaudio still replace my battery once I open my X5L.

Along the same lines has anyone opened up their X5 or X5L and replaced the hard drive, any recommendations on the drive? Will the ROM have trouble if I use a higher rpm drive will the battery suffer?

Koijima

04-19-2006, 17:13

I've complied some info for hardware changes in another post X5L Hardware changes (http://iaudiophile.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8649) not just for X5L.

but here is a synopsis for the battery.

For battery:
X5: 950 mAh LiIon Polymer
X5L: 2250 mAh LiIon Polymer
X5 battery size = ~ 34mm x 53mm x 5mm. I don't know about the X5L.
- there's supposed to be some slack room for the battery (in the X5 since I don't know about the X5L) so you might upgrade if you want to.
The charge is said to be most likely 3.6v or 3.7v.
- if someone can, please check.

Conjecture:
I think the dimensions for the X5L allows for a bigger battery in terms of length and not thickness since the only 2250+ mAh batteries I've been able to find hav a max thickness of 8mm but most hover around the 4.8-6mm which shouldn't have added so much bulk to the X5L.
This would be great news for us X5L users since we can probably upgrade to a 4500 mAh battery doubling the battery life....

**okay I know it's not necessary, but hey I plan to travel and I've been stuck in airports for 12 hrs. And you never know when you might have blackouts (I live in NYC, it's happened, and I plan to move to Cali which happens a lot I hear.)

Zeus's Uncle

04-19-2006, 18:14

Where are you getting your information about the batteries being lithium-ion polymer? Rockbox? The manufacturer says they are just lithium-ion.

Koijima

04-19-2006, 18:45

Where are you getting your information about the batteries being lithium-ion polymer? Rockbox? The manufacturer says they are just lithium-ion.

yeah from Rockbox, I think they may have a more accurate description since the webmaster at iaudio's official site may not care as much or know the difference. However, I don't know if the composition of the battery is significant since the difference between the Li-ion vs Li-ion polymer is that polymer holds the lithium in a solid and not a liquid, which doesn't affect the charge.

afruff23

04-19-2006, 18:48

You wouldn't be able to find a normal li-ion battery that would fit in such small dimesnions with this capacity. The X5 battery is small(reproted to have slack room in the case), so it is most likely polymer. How would a guy say a battery is polymer when it's not? The person would be more likely to say it is li-ion and not mention the polymer. If you want to be extra sure, the go to rockbox.org's IRC channel or forum and ask.

The battery being polymer or not is irrelevant in any case, since both kinds should work with the X5(or X5L).

Koijima

04-19-2006, 19:20

on reflection, and checking out http://www.ibt-power.com/index.html I believe that the polymer is more likely, especially for the X5L which has 2250mAh. In addition, because Li-ion Poly allows for greater miniaturization, and less weight which is a significant factor for whose marketing the X5/L.

amb7247

04-19-2006, 19:38

probably polymer since that website you mentined, Kiljima, is that it rates Li-Ion as 190mAh to 1800mAh. Where as Li-Polymer is 100mAh to 4500 mAh. Only thing to consider is the size.

Zeus's Uncle

04-19-2006, 20:09

How would a guy say a battery is polymer when it's not?

I love that argument.

Is it possible the x5 is lithium-ion while the x5l is lithium-ion-polymer?

amb7247

04-19-2006, 20:25

You could be onto something there Zeus. Now that you mention the two it's more likely.

BTW Koljima, could you charge your battery to the fullest, pull hte battery out, and use a digital multimeter to test the voltage coming from the battery? Would that accurately show the proper voltage of the battery.

Koijima

04-19-2006, 20:52

I love that argument.

Is it possible the x5 is lithium-ion while the x5l is lithium-ion-polymer?

I suppose so, but I'm going to leave the description as Li-ion polymer since it has a longer life span and better heat dissaption it's better to have. If those seeking to replace the battery with for an Li-ion they can do so as well.

BTW Koljima, could you charge your battery to the fullest, pull hte battery out, and use a digital multimeter to test the voltage coming from the battery? Would that accurately show the proper voltage of the battery.

*shrugs* I have not the digital multimeter, I think I may have an analog one (little guage thingy) but it's been so long I don't know where it is. Plus I'm waiting for my battery to get bad before I open up my X5L, or when I find a large =< 60 Gigs 1 platter disc [or 2 platter if my 30GB supports it] that's also not half the cost of my X5L.

Does charging the battery full necessary to get an accurate measurement?

afruff23

04-19-2006, 21:05

I love that argument.

Is it possible the x5 is lithium-ion while the x5l is lithium-ion-polymer?

No, the guy who measured the battery gave us the dimensions and it is a pretty small battery, a property of polymer types.

Zeus's Uncle

04-19-2006, 21:24

No, the guy who measured the battery gave us the dimensions and it is a pretty small battery, a property of polymer types.

Yes, pretty small is a property of polymers, but as I've already said, I've found non-polymers that have smaller dimensions than the ones given for the x5's batteries with similiar mAh ratings.

afruff23

04-20-2006, 20:09

Guy opened his M3 and measured battery (http://iaudiophile.net/forums/showthread.php?p=78815#post78815)

Doesn't the M3 use the same battery as the X5?

Zeus's Uncle

04-20-2006, 22:44

Guy opened his M3 and measured battery (http://iaudiophile.net/forums/showthread.php?p=78815#post78815)

Doesn't the M3 use the same battery as the X5?

Doesn't look like it does.

According to Amazon, the dimensions should be ~ 34mm x 53mm x 5mm.

That's for the x5.

33.5 mm Wide, 5 mm deep, 50 mm tall , which works out to
1.32 inches, .2 inches and 1.2 inches.

That's for the m3.

Also....

for the m3

another side:
PPCWo411

For the x5 it is PPCW0504: http://www.iaudiophile.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=11&pos=7

So.. very similar, but they don't appear to be the same, the x5 has different part number and appears that is a little bit longer.

Zeus's Uncle

04-20-2006, 23:06

I wish we could figure out the manufacturer of the battery used in the x5, man that would help so much.

Whiffle

04-20-2006, 23:31

PPCW0504 and PPCW0411 look alot like date of manufacture stickers to me actually, in the way they are applied, and that November of 2004 and April of 2005 are perfectly valid dates, so I doubt they mean anything for us. The other numbers I'm still trying to decipher though.

I opened up my m3 again and took a picture this time:
http://www.resnet.trinity.edu/avaselaa/dscn8637a.jpg

I do think that the numbers for the sizes are close enough that they could very well be the same battery, given that we're within 2 or 3 mm on all counts, which is a number that could change depending on where you measure the battery.

Whiffle

04-20-2006, 23:58

I wish we could figure out the manufacturer of the battery used in the x5, man that would help so much.

Your wish has been granted, they're made by LG.

http://www.iaudiophile.net/forums/showthread.php?t=211&highlight=battery+replacement

I found that from a post on the iaudio forums...it doesn't seem to come up in the search here. The pic of the x5 battery is kind of smudged though, but the last 6 digits of the number on the first line are the same as on the m3's battery.

GMan4911

04-21-2006, 00:27

Looks like we got a winner here. Nice find. The model # - ICP523450 - seems to correspond to the physical dimension, thickness x width x height. Okay, so let's find a higher capacity, compatible battery!

Zeus's Uncle

04-21-2006, 02:31

Nice, looks like it is indeed lithium-ion, not the polymer.
http://www.lgchem.com/en_products/electromaterial/battery/ion/icp523450.html

This one corresponds to the mAh rating of the x5, but has supposedly different dimensions.
http://www.lgchem.com/en_products/electromaterial/battery/ion/icp633048.html

Looks like the polymer versions have connector tabs sticking out of the packs.

Thanks for the post Whiffle, this forum has long be searching for this information.

amb7247

04-21-2006, 02:39

Still doesn't answer the question of what the X5L uses.

Wolfen

04-21-2006, 12:03

Only charging it when it is completely dead will shorten the lifespan of lithium based batteries. It prefers partial discharges to full depletions.

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm

True....but I always felt this was somewhat of a misnomer since devices using LI-ION batteries have full discharge protection. Therefore, you can run it down...but it's not really drained to the low levels that harm the health of the battery.

Whiffle

04-21-2006, 13:51

True....but I always felt this was somewhat of a misnomer since devices using LI-ION batteries have full discharge protection. Therefore, you can run it down...but it's not really drained to the low levels that harm the health of the battery.

Eh, I dunno about that. I ran mine down till it shut off on a regular basis, and its only about a year old now and the battery life is down to about 3-4 hours..

Zeus's Uncle

04-21-2006, 13:59

True....but I always felt this was somewhat of a misnomer since devices using LI-ION batteries have full discharge protection. Therefore, you can run it down...but it's not really drained to the low levels that harm the health of the battery.

That's a half truth. The full discharge protection is to prevent catastrophic damage, like copper shunts forming in the battery. It is not to prolong the lifespan of the battery. When we say repeated full discharges are bad, we mean that you discharge it to the point that the device shuts off, not to the point that you physically damage the battery. If you read the article, you'll learn more.

Wolfen

04-22-2006, 10:07

That's a half truth. The full discharge protection is to prevent catastrophic damage, like copper shunts forming in the battery. It is not to prolong the lifespan of the battery. When we say repeated full discharges are bad, we mean that you discharge it to the point that the device shuts off, not to the point that you physically damage the battery. If you read the article, you'll learn more.

Like I implied earlier, I don't disagree....and I have read that article several times. I just recall reading a reference that stated the auto shutoff of many electronic devices was set "high" enough to also facilitate battery life longevity. If that was true, it would be nice to know so that charge cycles are not wasted unnecessarily. However, Whiffle's experience seems to say that this is not the case with the X5, unless some other factor was at play (such as storage/usage in hot temperatures).

Either way, this isn't a critical issue. Finding a good battery replacement is the best way to keep our X5's going in the long run.

Zeus's Uncle

04-22-2006, 14:07

Like I implied earlier, I don't disagree....and I have read that article several times. I just recall reading a reference that stated the auto shutoff of many electronic devices was set "high" enough to also facilitate battery life longevity. If that was true, it would be nice to know so that charge cycles are not wasted unnecessarily. However, Whiffle's experience seems to say that this is not the case with the X5, unless some other factor was at play (such as storage/usage in hot temperatures).

Either way, this isn't a critical issue. Finding a good battery replacement is the best way to keep our X5's going in the long run.

Ok, you're misunderstanding both what a full discharge is and what a charge cycle is. My previous reply was about what a correct full discharge is, so now about a full charge cycle.

A charge cycle is not every time you plug in the device. All three of the following examples count as just one charge cycle:

1. Start with full charge, play till device cuts off, recharge fully.

2. Start with full charge, discharge 50%, recharge to full, discharge 50% recharge to full.

3. Start with 80% charge, discharge to 50%, recharge to full, discharge to 40%, recharge to full, discharge to 90%, recharge to full.

It's not how many times it's plugged in. Seriously, read the pages at battery univeristy. This is only a critical issue if you want to prolong the battery's lifespan.

Edit: this page has a graphic on what constitutes a charge cycle: http://www.apple.com/batteries/

Wolfen

04-22-2006, 15:03

Edit: this page has a graphic on what constitutes a charge cycle: http://www.apple.com/batteries/

That's great info. Since charge cycles work out that way, you would think the batteries would last more than 2-3 years!

Zeus's Uncle

04-22-2006, 15:35

That's great info. Since charge cycles work out that way, you would think the batteries would last more than 2-3 years!

www.batteryuniversity.com - just read it. that's just the lifespan of this battery chemistry, you can do things to decrease the lifespan, but the battery deteriorates even if you don't use it..

Aging is a concern with most lithium-ion batteries and many manufacturers remain silent about this issue. Some capacity deterioration is noticeable after one year, whether the battery is in use or not. The battery frequently fails after two or three years. It should be noted that other chemistries also have age-related degenerative effects. This is especially true for nickel-metal-hydride if exposed to high ambient temperatures. At the same time, lithium-ion packs are known to have served for five years in some applications.

Those applications where they last 5 years are typically light load applications. Most of these "questions" would have been answered if you'd searched the forums or read the links.

afruff23

04-22-2006, 16:29

Batteries last for longer than 2-3 years. The point where manufacturers consider a battery something that has to be replaced is when it can only hold 80% of it's original capacity which takes about 2-3 years.

EDIT: Cycle Performance 80% of initial capacity at 300 cycles
A typical user will recharge every 2-4 days, which is why it lasts 2-3 years. The quote is from that LG battery link. All batteries have some statement to that effect which includes the word 80%.

Zeus's Uncle

04-22-2006, 16:37

Batteries last for longer than 2-3 years. The point where manufacturers consider a battery something that has to be replaced is when it can only hold 80% of it's original capacity which takes about 2-3 years.

That's only partially right. It depends on what type of lithium-ion battery you have. You too, should review the battery univeristy pages.

The capacity loss manifests itself in increased internal resistance caused by oxidation. Eventually, the cell resistance reaches a point where the pack can no longer deliver the stored energy although the battery may still have ample charge. For this reason, an aged battery can be kept longer in applications that draw low current as opposed to a function that demands heavy loads. Increasing internal resistance with cycle life and age is typical for cobalt-based lithium-ion, a system that is used for cell phones, cameras and laptops because of high energy density. The lower energy dense manganese-based lithium-ion, also known as spinel, maintains the internal resistance through its life but loses capacity due to chemical decompositions.

I'm pretty sure that the x5 does not use low energy density packs, and so you would be incorrect for the lithium-ion battery in our devices.

afruff23

04-22-2006, 16:53

No, that is not "partially right". These are the MANUFACTURER's descriptions. THey are people who know more than me or you. I have already reviewed Batteryuniversity's pages. The main point is your battey will work for a LONG TIME. It just won't be as good as before.

Zeus's Uncle

04-22-2006, 17:07

Which manufacturer's page were you referencing? I never saw a link.

EDIT: Cycle Performance 80% of initial capacity at 300 cycles
A typical user will recharge every 2-4 days, which is why it lasts 2-3 years. The quote is from that LG battery link. All batteries have some statement to that effect which includes the word 80%.

So you'll note that they talk about PERFORMANCE, not CAPACITY. So again, it was a half truth. Please refer to the battery university quote for WHY the performance is at 80%. It is increased resistance, not decreased capacity.

afruff23

04-22-2006, 17:54

Zeus's Uncle

04-22-2006, 18:19

Manufacturer's link is the LG one I already mentioned which is the first link from your post. There is no scientific measuremtn of "performance". We're talking abotu capacity.
The speed by which lithium-ion ages is governed by temperature and state-of-charge. Figure 1 illustrates the capacity loss as a function of these two parameters
Taken from battery unviersity.

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm

It seems like everyone here has to keep restating themselves to get you to understand. I'm not the one that brought up the point that you cannot accept objective facts, that was someone else, they said you go quiet once proven wrong, I said I wish I was that lucky.

If you had read the paragraph just before the one with the term capacity loss that you mention, you would see the stuff I quoted in post 151.

The capacity loss manifests itself in increased internal resistance caused by oxidation. Eventually, the cell resistance reaches a point where the pack can no longer deliver the stored energy although the battery may still have ample charge.

That's where they explain what they mean by capacity loss. You have to read the definition to understand the meaning. What they are saying here is that the perceived loss of capacity is not due to a significant loss of capacitance, but is rather due to an increase in the resistance. They aren't saying that the battery now only holds 80% of the original charge, they are saying the battery can no longer release the same amount of charge. This is why the statement that it "can only 80% of the original capacity" is partially right.

FIN.

Wolfen

04-22-2006, 21:32

Ipod, iriver, whatever....not many dap users get more than three years of servicable life from their lithium ion (or polymer variant) batteries under normal use....period.

I hope this isn't news to you guys, but the specs provided by the manufacturers are a load of bunk. They are either outright lies, or more likely taken from the most favorable conditions possible, which is not real life use.

For example, I've seen NiMH advertised/rated for 1000 charge cycles, but I have never seen a set last past several hundred cycles. Even when extra effort is taken to keep them going.

Battery University is a fine resource...but can not be taken so literally just because it's published in black & white. Don't forget all of the uncontrollable variables that occur in real life. Listen to your X5 in your pocket?...you are now exposing your battery (and harddrive) to above normal operating temperatures....shame on you.

I can assure you that most X5 users will be looking for new batteries in less than 2-3 years.

If anyone wishes to tell me I'm wrong and that I should read battery university(again)....we'll just have to wait another year or two to see who's right.

Koijima

04-23-2006, 14:58

Whichever way the battery can no longer sustain a acceptable charge to the X5/L, the truth is there is a loss, whether it is charge loss or resistance.

In addition we don't know what qualifies as a high charge versus a low one (although we can all agree that startup and movie watching wold be high charge uses, on and USB-HOST)

What we need to know is what is the Voltage and/or which batteries will work, and how to do it

Whiffle

04-23-2006, 15:18

Its fairly simple really. These players use a 3.7 volt rechargable cell (the standard voltage for li-ion and li-poly cells), and the one in my m3 is rated at 1000 mAh. That means at 1000 mA draw, it will last one hour before being discharged down to the cutoff point. The hard part is finding one that has equal or better capacity, and fits in the same spot, and is available. So far I have not found any for my M3 that are the same capacity and the same size, much less available to purchase to the public. Many of the higher capacity ones are much longer or much thicker, meaning they won't fit into the player (this is the same reason the M3L and the X5L are thicker overall). Also, most of the places that sell these kinds of batteries expect you to purchase 100+ units, not just one at a time, and are typically not setup to deal with the public. One site that looks promising is www.mouser.com, but none of their batteries are the right size. I might send them an email to see if getting other sizes is possible. Were we a bunch of ipod types we could get batteries just about anywhere that are plug and play, but since demand isn't high enough for our batteries, they are much harder to come by. I sent an email to LG Chemicals (they make the batteries in our players) on Friday asking where I might find someone who sells their cells to the public; I hope to hear back from them on Monday.

The other important part is the PCM ( Protection Circuit Module ). This is a very small circuit board that is absolutely necessary for these kinds of batteries. This is what cuts off the battery at the miniumum voltage when fully depleted and cuts it off when it is fully charged, both to prevent damage and/or fire. If you pull one of these batteries out of the unit, you'll find that it is a little roundish box kind of thing wrapped in PVC shrink wrap plastic, with 2 wires coming out. On one side of the battery underneath the plastic is the PCM. Some sites offer just the cell without the PCM, and some offer them as a package. Either way you must make sure that you get a PCM.

Once a suitable replacement is found, it looks to be very easy to replace the battery. My m3 is held together with screws and is very well put together so getting it open and closed again without breaking is easy (I've done it 3 or 4 times now...). The batteries are hard wired to the main board though, but thats no problem if you're handy with a wire cutter and a soldering iron.

Whiffle

04-23-2006, 21:47

Dear Mr. Andy,

Thank you for contacting LG Chem.

Please contact the manufacturer of iAudio M3, Cowon for battery replacement.

http://eng.iaudio.com/

LG Chem do not sell batteries to individuals.

Thank you.

Respectfully submitted,

Webmaster

LG Chem, Ltd.

www.lgchem.com

----- Original Message -----

From: andrew.vaselaar@trinity.edu

Subject: Where can I buy a replacement battery?

Hello-

I have an mp3 player (iAudio M3) that uses this battery of yours:

http://www.lgchem.com/en_products/electromaterial/battery/ion/icp523450.html

Like all batteries of this type, they eventually die. Were it an Ipod, I could pick up a battery just about anywhere, but its not. Do you know of anywhere besides the maker of my mp3 player where I can buy this battery? I would rather replace it myself since I really don`t have the time or money to spare to mail it off to the manufacturer for a replacement, but I am having lots of difficulty finding this particular battery. Do you know of anybody in the United States that carrys this battery and is willing to sell them one at a time? Thanks!

-Andy

The search continues. I wonder if they even read it.

afruff23

04-23-2006, 21:50

They said they won't sell to individuals? They just lost a lot of business...

Zeus's Uncle

04-23-2006, 21:54

The search continues. I wonder if they even read it.

Probably skimmed it for the keywords. That's pretty much standard for large manufacturers, it's just not cost effective to sell it in small lots. We should petition www.ipodbattery.com to carry iaudio compatible batteries. Though, it probably wouldn't be cost effective for them to do that either. So few x5 users compared to ipod users, but the have creative, iriver, archos, and a bunch others.

Whiffle

04-23-2006, 22:27

I just dropped them an email, we'll see what they say. They seem to carry a very wide selection of batteries from PDA to ipod, I doubt it would be too difficult for them to add another to the line.

I just wish I had more time on my hands...it would be fun to modify an m3 to take a cell phone battery.

afruff23

04-23-2006, 22:54

I knew it would be too cost ineffective for selling it in small amounts, but suppose one forum member bought 30 batteries and sold it off to forum members. Would 30 be too little?

madmike1029

04-24-2006, 00:14

I knew it would be too cost ineffective for selling it in small amounts, but suppose one forum member bought 30 batteries and sold it off to forum members. Would 30 be too little?

all depends on where it is being bought from. alot of places sell 100+ only some even are 1000+

madmike1029

04-25-2006, 00:27

So i finally received a reply from cowon from my techsupport question, this was the questions i asked:
I am curious about the details on the battery sizes between the two. I am wondering about such details as voltage and amp rating including capacity. Also the dimension of the battery.

Another question is whether or not the protection circuits for li-ion battery is built into the battery or is this included within the x5's motherboard. Also is the battery a standard lithium-ion or is it lithium-ion polymer.

Thank you very much in advance, I look forward to your response.
Mike

and this is the reply:
The X5 uses a litium ion battery. Unfortunatley we cannot provide any more information about our battery.
Thank you,
Cowon America Inc.

so ya, talk about making sure they can squeeze every penny out of the consumer...:thumbsdow

Zeus's Uncle

04-25-2006, 00:43

Yeah, I predicted this. They sell them, so they aren't going to give you directions to find your own replacement. It's like stopping at the one liquor, saying I want to buy a case of miller high life, but can you point me to another store? They just have a canned response for any inquiries about the battery.

Whiffle

04-25-2006, 01:01

I put a request in at ebatts.com today at lunch, we'll see what they say...

huntr

05-06-2006, 13:50

this thread seems to be dying...here's an attempt to breath some life back in...

I've been reading this thread fervently for the last 3 months because being the cheap arse that I am, I won't commtt to buying an X5 until I know I can manually replace the batter WHEN it dies.

Whiffle - did you get a response from ebatts.com ?

has anyone else got any some further information to provide ?

please!!!

I can't wait to purchase my X5 so I preach ad nauseum to my mrs about how inferior her beloved ipod is!