View Full Version : Question about digital music formats?
I'm not an audio guy so I have a basic question. If I uncompressed an MP3 @ 192K to 320K is it the same quality as if I had a 320K file to start with?
In other words was that 192K audio file just upscaled to 320K without all the real benefits of just starting out with a 320K file to begin with? I hope I didn't confuse you. :)
TheDarkSide
02-11-2012, 09:35
You can't up-convert, and that's what that is. Or, you SHOULDN'T do it. There will be artifacts and errors that will make the music file sound worse.
I sometimes down-convert. I take a higher bitrate mp3 file (320 kbps mp3 or V~0 LAME/mp3 rip) and convert it to VBR V~5 (about 128 kbps LAME/mp3). There is a loss in sq, but it's for portable usage - so I really don't notice the difference (too much). I THINK I hear the highs being cut off - but is it a placebo - who CARES!!! :P I could never tell above 192 kbps anyways,...the same as 99.999% of the population.
The rule of thumb is: Never up-convert!
You can't up-convert, and that's what that is. Or, you SHOULDN'T do it. There will be artifacts and errors that will make the music file sound worse.
I sometimes down-convert. I take a higher bitrate mp3 file (320 kbps mp3 or V~0 LAME/mp3 rip) and convert it to VBR V~5 (about 128 kbps LAME/mp3). There is a loss in sq, but it's for portable usage - so I really don't notice the difference (too much). I THINK I hear the highs being cut off - but is it a placebo - who CARES!!! :P I could never tell above 192 kbps anyways,...the same as 99.999% of the population.
The rule of thumb is: Never up-convert!
I had the sneaking suspicion that was the case but since i'm not audio guy I kept doing it. Are there any music services other than Spotify that offers 320KBPS? And for some reason I can hear the difference between 192 and 320k. It's like the music has more depth and overall better range.
TheDarkSide
02-11-2012, 10:06
I don't use spoyify or any other music services, so I can't answer that one.
As for what you can or can't hear: Download foobar2000 (http://www.foobar2000.org/), install the ABX Comparator (http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_abx) - I'll bet that after doing a real test of what you can or can't hear you'll be surprised at what really is just "placebo.
I tested myself once, I failed miserably. That's why, with a PROPERLY encoded LAME file there's no real advantage to FLAC for a portable, and the sq differences that most people think they hear are illusions/placebo. The same goes for higher bitrate mp3's,...I just like having them at higher bitrate to own them. You'll most likely have similar results - as most do.
Try the test & see,...or actually hear,...
lupu_de_balta
02-11-2012, 12:24
hm... dude... i am using only flac files, on j3. i can tell you that from mp3 to flac, is a long way, and i do feel the difference. i have had the same discussion on head-fi. if you cannot really make a differenece between a high quality flac and a low quality mp3, go to a doctor, and see if your ears are ok. a normal human, should hear the difference. i mean that after all of my friends have cleaned up their ears, they were able to tell the difference for the same comercial song between a 320 mp3, and a flac. you know... as an audiophile i recomend this check of the ear thing to everyone.... really!.... it can make your experience with music a LOT better.
^ Good recommendation.
However, audible perception does also depend on each individual's ears - I'm clearly no audiophile and I can't tell any differences above 256kbps (I think most people can't).
That makes me wonder... lupu, how the hell were all your friends able to tell the difference between 320bkps MP3 and FLAC? Are they all audiophiles? Seriously, 320kbps sound flawless to me.
TheDarkSide
02-11-2012, 12:58
hm... dude... i am using only flac files, on j3. i can tell you that from mp3 to flac, is a long way, and i do feel the difference. i have had the same discussion on head-fi. if you cannot really make a differenece between a high quality flac and a low quality mp3, go to a doctor, and see if your ears are ok. a normal human, should hear the difference. i mean that after all of my friends have cleaned up their ears, they were able to tell the difference for the same comercial song between a 320 mp3, and a flac. you know... as an audiophile i recomend this check of the ear thing to everyone.... really!.... it can make your experience with music a LOT better.
!!!BS ALERT!!! Great, another head-fi'er. Got a hifiman yet?
hm... dude... i am using only flac files, on j3. i can tell you that from mp3 to flac, is a long way, and i do feel the difference. i have had the same discussion on head-fi. if you cannot really make a differenece between a high quality flac and a low quality mp3, go to a doctor, and see if your ears are ok. a normal human, should hear the difference. i mean that after all of my friends have cleaned up their ears, they were able to tell the difference for the same comercial song between a 320 mp3, and a flac. you know... as an audiophile i recomend this check of the ear thing to everyone.... really!.... it can make your experience with music a LOT better.
Oh boy, here we go again... Nobody can hear the difference between properly encoded LAME MP3 and FLAC in 99.999% of the times. That's a fact that's been proven in many tests. I'm an audio engineer (not an "audiophile", whatever that is), I know what I have to listen for as far as audible artifacts go. I did many double-blind ABX tests between lossless and lossy files - and as long as the lossy encode is done properly, it is indistinguishable from the original.
Instead of spreading such anecdotes, I would recommend you try some ABX tests between lossy and lossless for yourself. It's the only way to be sure you're not fooling yourself. This is the easiest method to do these tests: http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_abx (this is a plugin for Foobar2000).
Here's some more in-depth info about what ABX means: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=16295
(not an "audiophile", whatever that is)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audiophile
Sorry, couldn't resist.
I don't use spoyify or any other music services, so I can't answer that one.
As for what you can or can't hear: Download foobar2000 (http://www.foobar2000.org/), install the ABX Comparator (http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_abx) - I'll bet that after doing a real test of what you can or can't hear you'll be surprised at what really is just "placebo.
I tested myself once, I failed miserably. That's why, with a PROPERLY encoded LAME file there's no real advantage to FLAC for a portable, and the sq differences that most people think they hear are illusions/placebo. The same goes for higher bitrate mp3's,...I just like having them at higher bitrate to own them. You'll most likely have similar results - as most do.
Try the test & see,...or actually hear,...
What do I do with the foo_abx.dll file? And what do I use for a test? [blink]
TheDarkSide
02-11-2012, 20:55
Oh boy, here we go again... Nobody can hear the difference between properly encoded LAME MP3 and FLAC in 99.999% of the times. That's a fact that's been proven in many tests. I'm an audio engineer (not an "audiophile", whatever that is), I know what I have to listen for as far as audible artifacts go. I did many double-blind ABX tests between lossless and lossy files - and as long as the lossy encode is done properly, it is indistinguishable from the original.
Instead of spreading such anecdotes, I would recommend you try some ABX tests between lossy and lossless for yourself. It's the only way to be sure you're not fooling yourself. This is the easiest method to do these tests: http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_abx (this is a plugin for Foobar2000).
Here's some more in-depth info about what ABX means: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=16295
^This is what you can do^
What do I do with the foo_abx.dll file? And what do I use for a test? [blink]
I think dfkt covered it. There's way more info out there, but read this for a start: http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/04/22/abx-testing-and-a-new-audio-interface/
I did the test once, I'm no authority. I just know it's worth doing once to prove to yourself the truth about LOSSLESS vs quality encoded lossy files.
Thanks, that was the page I was on and the document page was blank when I clicked on it. [no]
lupu_de_balta
02-12-2012, 02:44
@kizune: you know, to be true, i tested flac vs mp3 only with other audiophiles, AND with high quality equipment. like very expensive headphones/iems. i am not sure, but i think that with any equipment that is not in the "audiophile" category you cannot hear those differences. in fact, until i get my IE8's i was not hearing the differences. maybe it is about headphones/iems. to be true, at first, i hated flacs because they were eating my space for nothing. but after i got sennheiser ie8, sennheiser hd 480 pro, sony xb 700, and some pioneer, and some yamaha iems, i was like "i can't listen to any mp3 any more"... now, after learning how to encode mp3's properly, i can say that they are close, but there are differences, like "this guitar note, sounds a little more hars, on flac, i want it this way". it is not placebo, because, i have done abx comparation tests for a while.
@thedarkside: Not, i don't have a hifiman, i really enjoy my j3 for the time being. but my laptop has some good audio component, so the j3 used with flacs and hifi iems, is enough for my walks.
@dfkt: first of it all, thanks for your reviews about j3, around the net. second, belive me, mp3 cuts off some of the highs. with more and more expensive equipment, i think that these highs are more obvious. to be real, i think that it depends on every one's hearing, more than on anything. i have done some wierd tests, and i am able to hear more than most of people. so, based on my experience, i am always recomending flac more than mp3, and audiophile equipment, more than "normal" equipment.
i have done abx comparation tests for a while.
Now you got me curious; could you please elaborate -- what exactly did you compare and how? How did you make the input switching and what percentages of correct answers did you get?
TheDarkSide
02-12-2012, 05:40
Thanks, that was the page I was on and the document page was blank when I clicked on it. [no]
Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jt7GyFW4hOI
I didn't have time to watch it, but a Google search will help you out.
I don't know the answer to this but i'm curious. When you download an MP3 album and it says "Remastered" (I assume 320K vs 192k) is there a difference in the audio? When you play a CD with the "TELARC" label is there a difference in the quality or are both examples still placebo?
What do you all mean by encoding an MP3 properly?
A different master/remaster of the source recording usually gives a very real difference in sound quality - sometimes better, sometimes worse. But this has nothing to do with the encoder used, if it's MP3 or FLAC - the difference in sound is already on the original CD. Here's an explanation of what remastering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remaster) means.
"Properly" encoded MP3s mean that you use the LAME MP3 codec (http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Lame) (not FhG/Thomson, iTunes-FhG, Xing, or any other), and that you use LAME's VBR preset switches (-v0 to, say, -v4), which are optimized for best audio quality. The most reliable CD ripper to use is EAC (http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=EAC).
Thanks for the explanation. I do admit that i've heard some really nice MP3 files probably because of the encoding of EAC like you said but there are some FLAC files that sound ungodly good on my J3. [yes]
lupu_de_balta
02-12-2012, 16:12
i just were putting some (for the same song mp3, and flac, into a playlist of foobar). then i have turned around, and a friend shuffled them. i listened to the whole two songs, and the same friend wrote down, what i have said about 1-flac2-mp3, for example. a percentage?.. well, for breaking benjamin, the instruments were awful, and i told that i don't know, and the pretty same, for the following metallica-st anger album, linkin park(sorry, but they sound EXACTLY the same if they are mp3 or flac encoded) nelly furtado, and spineshank. but for bands like wintersun, metallica (excepting st anger, who is a fan knows), system of a down, (even lady gaga, funny story), cold war kids, rob zombie, offspring(one of the bands that makes a lot of difference), and even the aeon, cannibal corpse, arch enemy, and romanian band parazitii (rap music, but the instrumental part had the highs cut off in 320 mp3, a little, but i was able to hear it) the difference was like a long way, between mp3 and flac. for pure electronic bands, like daft punk, i think that it was placebo, because in blind tests, i was like "huh, the song sounds too much the same, i cannot really tell, but i think that it is two. it was two. you get the point!..
not that long, dude, how can i put this in a word, there are sweet details, little things, a small sound, a longer sound of the cymbal, the strings of a guitar, some things that sound different.
to be real, if you look up into silver shine, a band from hungary, they sound awful encoded in mp3 and flac. but i was at a concert of them in romania, live in a small club for rock and metal music, and they sounded sweeter than i ever imagined. in fact, it is a fault of some bands, that you cannot hear the difference between flac and mp3.
now, for those who think it is place, try this. get yourself, the band haggard (progresive-classic instruments-gothic-metal). they have a very wide and complex range of instruments, and they sound A LOT better encoded in flac. if you are not getting the difference in the ear, then it means or that you are not hearing that range of highs, or that i am hearing above that range, and everything i said is for nothing, and i just pissed a lot of people.
no, it will not be possible to hear anything, in the mids section, only in the high sounds section. somewhere above 18-20khz. my hearing goes enough, for me to hear something from a normal dog wistle. i don't know, it's a faint sound, but it exists and it is high pitched. the time of a cymbal, or a very detailed instrument (like wintersun's more than two guitars) is cut by the encoding in mp3.
keep in mind, too, the fact that i do have an "audiophile" grade setup. so it can depend on this too. as i am an audiophile, i spend a LOT of money on equipment, so it is like i am very concentrated to hear the differences. for fun listening, i can say, that i am using flacs too, but i set the highest band frequency on j3 higher, and put sennheiser hd480pro, or sennheiser ie8, and i go. when you walk, you cannot hear the same you hear when you sit and are concentrated.
sorry for the longs story, and keep in mind, to listen only to what you like, but keep it in high quality, for better music experience.
y'know its also evident in 80's music, i have no explanation why but music recorded in the 80's sounds soooo much crisper, full bodied and balanced than anything recorded from the 90's up.
60's and 70's stuff and below sounds grainy with the rare exeption, but thats obviously down to the equipment used at the time.
could it be surround sound recordings badly converted to stereo?
I recently downloaded Sumpertramp Remastered from Zune Pass and it sounds really, really good.
TheDarkSide
02-13-2012, 14:01
I think the teletubbies are really amazing as well,...but My Little Pony is the SHIIT!!!
dont be too disheartened after all it's not the size of the boat that matters; it's the motion in the ocean.
><
TheDarkSide
02-13-2012, 19:07
Friendship is MAGIC!!!
http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/20400000/Rainbow-Dash-my-little-pony-friendship-is-magic-20416585-555-375.jpg
lupu_de_balta
02-14-2012, 03:38
i don't get ideea with colored horse cartoons. is anyone able to explain those things to me?
checkmate134
02-14-2012, 16:32
He's one of the many bronies on this forum. Don't mind him^^
But actually, it's a children's cartoon that's earned quite a large following, many of who aren't the type of people you'd expect to watch this show. It's called My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic, in case you wanted to watch it :P.
lupu_de_balta
02-14-2012, 16:55
no, really, i don't get it. i am actually a fan of things like this... but i just can't get what it should be, a short cartoon, a short anime, a cartoon, an anime?.... i even downloaded and watched the whole panty and stocking season1. if you heard of it, you understand that i like colors and so... but i was more curious about details about this thing my little pony, if someone understands it better than i actually do.
TheDarkSide
02-14-2012, 17:41
My Little Pony (http://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ie=UTF-8&ion=1#hl=en&cp=14&gs_id=4&xhr=t&q=my+little+pony&gs_upl=&ion=1&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbm=vid&source=og&sa=N&tab=wv&ei=HfE6T42_HYq00QHzt4ywCw&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=f59f2a4212c02d8c&ion=1&biw=1280&bih=899)
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