Playlists on the J3

[JMC Creative]

My J3's got a directory 'Playlists', and there's 5 .pla files from Media Monkey ( I can see them on my Pc). But when I browse the playlists within the J3, they don't show up. How can I get the playlists to work? I read somewhere in the forum that .m3u will screw stuff up. I've got the player in MCC (or whatever [cry], not MCP mode, but the other one..) I don't want to put it in MCP mode because then Media Monkey wrote all kinds of .abu files all over the place.

[Franki]

There is MSC and MTP. MSC = mass storage class, MTP = Media Transfer Protocol.

If you can access the System folder, you're in MSC mode. See my guide (http://iaudiophile.net/forums/showthread.php?t=37327) how to get playlists working...

[DSperber]

My J3's got a directory 'Playlists', and there's 5 .pla files from Media Monkey ( I can see them on my Pc). But when I browse the playlists within the J3, they don't show up. How can I get the playlists to work? I read somewhere in the forum that .m3u will screw stuff up. I've got the player in MCC (or whatever [cry], not MCP mode, but the other one..) I don't want to put it in MCP mode because then Media Monkey wrote all kinds of .abu files all over the place.As was explained, it's "MSC" mode vs. "MTP" mode. Two different methods of USB connection (set in Settings -> System -> USB mode, where you then pick either MSC or MTP).

MTP mode is what you must be in for PLA playlists to work. In my opinion and experience, MTP mode and PLA playlists DO ACTUALLY WORK 100% SUCCESSFULLY.

However...

(1) In my experience, only Windows Explorer can actually create/modify PLA playlists. I don't know of other players or MP3 utilities that can handle PLA playlists, but maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps Media Monkey is capable of handling PLA... don't know, since I don't use it.

(2) As the J3 CAN seem to successfully handle PLA playlists if you go into [Playlists] (e.g. by tapping the Music button, and then navigating back to the browse menu, and then choose the [Playlists] item) you should see your PLA playlist names WITHOUT THE .PLA EXTENSION. This is good, and this is how it should be, and this is a sign that the J3 truly recognizes and understands and is correctly digesting those PLA playlists, and that they will "work" correctly when you select them.

(3) As long as you remain in MTP mode your PLA playlists will remain intact and functional. Do not revert the J3 to MSC mode and then re-connect the J3 to your PC via USB in MSC mode, because that process will then ruin the PLA playlists (obviously, a firmware bug). The PLA playlists will either "disappear", or they will remain as files but their contents get corrupted so that they are no longer usable.

Either way, if you want to use PLA playlists which ARE SEEMINGLY PERFECTLY SUPPORTED BY THE J3... remain in MTP mode. Do not go back to MSC mode, unless you want to then go back to MTP mode and recreate all of your now ruined PLA playlist files.

(4) In my experience, when the J3 is connected to the PC in MTP mode and you use Windows Explorer to browse the device (in order to copy files from PC to the J3, or to build/maintain PLA playlists) the J3 does not show both the "internal storage" and "external storage". For some unknown reason (again, probably a second firmware bug) only "internal storage" appears.

This is a serious flaw, since it prevents you from copying files to the microSDHC card when in MTP mode, and likewise prevents you from manipulating PLA playlist files on the microSDHC card (which is where you'd think you need to store them in order to handle files on the microSDHC card, but to be honest I don't know if this is an actual requirement... because I can't see "external storage" in Windows Explorer when in MTP mode).

(5) At one time, the very first time I got into MTP mode, I actually WAS able to see both "internal storage" and "external storage" in Windows Explorer. Can't explain why/how that happened... but it happened only once.

When I unwittingly reverted back to MSC mode, reconnected the J3 to PC, re-booted, turned the J3 off, etc., not only did I lose the PLA playlists I had created (at that first experiment only for files on the "internal storage" of the J3) but ever since when I reconnect in MTP mode I simply have never again been able to see "external storage".

Again, this is obviously a J3 firmware bug, but unfortunately it really does prevent me from even considering wanting to use MTP mode for its currently working PLA playlist functionality, because half of my music collection is on the microSDHC card.


(6) In contrast, if you connect the J3 to your PC in MSC mode, now the PLA playlist functionality NO LONGER IS SUPPORTED... neither by Windows Explorer to create/maintain it, nor by the J3 itself in [Playlists]. Yes, the PLA files may be in the \Playlists (or elsewhere) folder, but they will not appear in [Playlists] and are not usable. PLA playlists are only announced, scanned and discovered at boot time, and usable... while the J3 is in MTP mode.

(7) In MSC mode, only M3U playlists are theoretically supported. However in my experience I have never been able to get the J3 to actually USE an M3U playlist successfully (i.e. the way the PLA playlists work perfectly when the J3 is in MTP mode).

In fact, the M3U playlist files seem to be discovered at J3 boot time but appear under [Playlists] showing their full name... including the .M3U extension. This is NOT how they should appear if they are going to really work. If they were absorbed and understood by the J3 they would appear under [Playlists] exactly like PLA playlists do... only with the playlist name, but not showing the PLA/M3U extension at the end.

Some people have reported success (some, but not 100%) with some (but not all) M3U playlists. Those who have found some "trick or workaround" to post-editing the M3U playlists built by assorted various Windows programs have reported that their M3U playlists DO show up under [Playlists] correctly, without the .M3U extension. That's the clue that it is "working correctly".

But for many of the rest of us, and even for those who have reported some success with M3U playlists in MSC mode, if the playlist shows under [Playlists] with its .M3U extension visible, then it is NOT going to work. If you select that playlist you will then see "No file" returned by the J3... and that playlist is worthless.

(8) Note that all of these M3U playlists created by Windows-based programs while the J3 is connected to the PC in MSC mode in fact are actually 100% usable by assorted Windows-based player programs (e.g. Winamp), even if the J3 cannot make sense out of them.

Also, there are at least four separate internal syntax formats for an "acceptable" M3U playlist, as demonstrated by looking inside those M3U files produced by various Windows-based utilities/players which have playlist-creation capability.

Again, all four of these different formats appear to ALL be 100% usable by Windows-based player programs reading the M3U playlist files stored on the J3, and the J3-located referenced tracks in these J3-located M3U playlists (stored on the internal/external storage of the J3, actually shown as two separate drive letters with Windows Explorer, when the J3 is connected in MSC mode, rather than "internal storage" and "external storage" when the J3 is connected in MTP mode) are accessed perfectly by these Windows-based player programs.

It's only the J3 which cannot seem to use these M3U playlists... although again, some users say they have had limited but not 100% success with M3U playlists, although many others (like me) have had zero success.

It's been speculated that M3U playlists on either of the two drives of the MSC-connected J3 (e.g. in two separate \Playlist folders, on the two drives) can only refer to files also located on that same drive. In other words that an M3U playlist in \Playlist of the J3's internal storage drive cannot name files on the external storage drive. But to be honest, I don't know one way or the other... since I personally have NEVER been able to get M3U playlists to work at all on the J3 in MSC mode.

(9) In my opinion, all of this J3 unreliability with M3U playlists and MSC mode is due to firmware problems on the J3... and is not related to the 4 different M3U playlist syntax formats. Windows-based player programs have no problem whatsoever using the 4 different M3U playlist formats, and the J3 should similarly have no problem.

I have a hunch the reason M3U playlist functionality on the J3 "works" for some users (but even for them, not necessarily for all of their M3U playlists) and not for others... even with buggy firmware... must have something to do with the method used to build the ID3 tags, and/or how the files themselves were created or acquired, along with the folder structure and file naming conventions that the user's music collection reflects. This is clearly a wide open subject (and we each have our own organization methods, for both folders and file names and how we store data in ID3 tags), but obviously none of this variability causes any problem whatsoever for Windows-based player programs. The only software that has a problem with all of this variability (implied by the M3U playlists) is the J3... and that's clearly due to unintended bugs, not by design.

(10) Reports are that the identical M3U playlist which works perfectly on the S9 fails to work on the J3. --> Obviously a J3 firmware problem.

[JMC Creative]

(7) In MSC mode, only M3U playlists are theoretically supported. However in my experience I have never been able to get the J3 to actually USE an M3U playlist successfully (i.e. the way the PLA playlists work perfectly when the J3 is in MTP mode).


Fascinating... So the J3 being in MSC or MTP mode actually makes a difference in what the player does even when not hooked up to a PC? that's really odd & interesting. Shouldn't the j3 have playlist functionality? How hard can that be? [sad] Thanks for the great answers.

[DSperber]

Fascinating... So the J3 being in MSC or MTP mode actually makes a difference in what the player does even when not hooked up to a PC? that's really odd & interesting. Well...

Having the J3 set to either MSC or MTP mode, and then connecting the J3 to the PC via USB, affects just how Windows sees the J3 (and its two storage locations). This also affects what/how playlists are built/maintained (M3U with MSC connections, and PLA with MTP connections).

In my experience, with the J3 connected with MTP only Windows Explorer can be used to copy files from PC to J3 (and even then, only for "internal storage" since a second J3 firmware bug seems to prevent "external storage" from being seen in MTP mode). In MSC mode, Windows Explorer as well as all other file managers, organizers, players, and playlist creator utilities, can access both "drives" of the J3... both to copy files from PC to J3 as well as to build/maintain M3U playlists.

Now, in my experience, if MTP mode is used to copy files and build PLA playlists, once the J3 is disconnected from the PC it really doesn't matter if you leave the J3 in MTP mode or change it to MSC mode (though I don't know why you'd want to do that, if you're not planning on reconnecting to the PC for something that specifically requires MSC mode). Those PLA playlists built/maintained while connected in MTP mode will STILL be usable even if the Settings of the J3 are changed to indicate MSC mode (for the next time the J3 is connected to the PC).

Again... once PLA playlists are built while in MTP mode, it doesn't then matter if the J3 is left in MTP mode or changed to MSC mode (as long as the J3 is not then reconnected to the PC in MSC mode). The PLA playlists will still work (though limited to "internal storage" as I've stated).

However, if after PLA playlists are built you revert the J3 to MSC mode AND ACTUALLY THEN RE-CONNECT TO THE PC IN MSC MODE... well now you've just destroyed those PLA playlists. I don't know why this happens, and whether the "culprit" is Windows or a bug in the J3's firmware. Whoever is responsible, the net effect is that the PLA files seem to have their internal track references corrupted or deleted. The PLA files themselves seem to be retained, but are no longer in a proper format and thus are not recognized or managed properly by Windows (even after returning the J3 to MTP mode, reconnecting to the PC and poking around using Windows Explorer).

Furthermore, once the PLA playlist files have been destroyed by re-connecting to the PC in MSC mode, the J3 itself no longer recognizes them as playlist files, and they will no longer even show up in [Playlists].


==>> That's why I restate it: if you want to use PLA playlists (which seem to work perfectly, but only for "internal storage" since "external storage" is not recognized by the J3 in MTP mode because of what I feel to be a separate firmware bug) you must work in MTP mode, and remain in MTP mode for any future re-connections to the PC.

And actually, you can reset the J3 to MSC mode and the PLA playlists will still work... but only as long as you never re-connect to the PC in MSC mode. If you do re-connect to the PC in MSC mode you will just have lost all of your PLA playlists, and they must be deleted and rebuilt (while once again in MTP mode).

[DSperber]

MIRACULOUS BREAKTHROUGH: if you remove the external microSDHC card from the J3, magically the M3U playlist functionality NOW WORKS!!!

As documented by my post in this thread (http://www.anythingbutipod.com/forum/showpost.php?p=490817&postcount=20) on the anythingbutipod.com forum, three out of the four known M3U formats (see following examples) actually WILL work fine with the J3 and MSC mode. Only the fourth "minimalist absolute" syntax seems to produce "No file" and fail.

And, as predicted, all four M3U playlists now display correctly under [Playlists], without the .M3U extension shown. Even though one of those playlists results in "No file", at least its playlist name displays correctly under [Playlists].

So, the first three following M3U playlist formats DO WORK FINE. Only the fourth "minimalist absolute" format (from MP3-Explorer) produces "No file", even though it works fine when used by Winamp on the PC.

But again... you must first remove your microSDHC card in order for the J3's current firmware playlist functionality to work. Hopefully this will be fixed.


(1) Produced by Cowon's JetAudio program: [works on the J3]

#EXTM3U
#EXTINF:255,Desperado
W:\Music\Eagles, The\Hell Freezes Over\Desperado.mp3
#EXTINF:432,Hotel California
W:\Music\Eagles, The\Hell Freezes Over\Hotel California.mp3


(2) Produced by Winamp: [works on the J3]

#EXTM3U
#EXTINF:255,Eagles, The - Desperado
\Music\Eagles, The\Hell Freezes Over\Desperado.mp3
#EXTINF:432,Eagles, The - Hotel California
\Music\Eagles, The\Hell Freezes Over\Hotel California.mp3


(3) Produced by Playlist Creator: [works on the J3]

#EXTM3U
#EXTINF:255,Hell Freezes Over - 15 - Desperado
..\Music\Eagles, The\Hell Freezes Over\Desperado.mp3
#EXTINF:432,Hell Freezes Over - 6 - Hotel California
..\Music\Eagles, The\Hell Freezes Over\Hotel California.mp3


(4) Produced by MP3 Explorer: [fails to work on the J3]

w:\music\Eagles, The\Hell Freezes Over\Desperado.mp3
w:\music\Eagles, The\Hell Freezes Over\Hotel California.mp3


Nevertheless, once again, this M3U playlist functionality on the J3 only seems to work currently if the microSDHC card is NOT INSERTED.

Obviously Cowon must fix this in firmware. I have actually heard back from Cowon Korea just today on this matter, and will report back to them my discovery.

[DSperber]

Even more amazing new development...

I just reinserted my microSDHC card.

AND I STILL HAVE MY WORKING M3U PLAYLISTS!!!

I am guessing that the cache version of the playlists was finally built successfully by my previous environment, when I had temporarily removed the microSDHC card.

And since I hadn't made any changes on the internal storage of the J3 since that process completed, but rather now only reinserted the microSDHC card, I suspect the cached version of the M3U playlists (or whatever got done that made it work) is still valid and untouched.

So now I am back to full storage capacity of the J3 (both internal and external storage in use), and the M3U playlists still show correctly under [Playlists] and work fine.


I will do some more experimenting, to see if something I now do will "break" this currently working playlist functionality and revert it back to "No file" and .M3U extension showing under [Playlists].

I'm going to see if I make a change to something on the J3's internal storage if that will have an effect, add another playlist, try and build playlists for tracks on the microSDHC card and store them on a new \Playlists folder on that external card, etc. Is M3U playlist functionality only for internal storage, or can it also work for the microSDHC card?

In other words, was it really only crucial to get this to work one time (without the microSDHC card inserted) and now it will keep working forever? Or if I begin to tamper with things again as I experiment, will I return to "No file" failing M3U playlist functionality as soon as I cause the J3 to rebuild internal storage cache?

Fascinating.

[haqiq]

Finally! Yay!!!!

[DSperber]

Please see this thread on anythingbutipod.com for "final results" of my experiments (http://www.anythingbutipod.com/forum/showpost.php?p=490906&postcount=22) with the J3 and M3U playlists, now that I've discovered the secret to success is to BE SURE TO REMOVE THE MICROSDHC CARD BEFORE THE FIRST RE-BOOT FOLLOWING THE CREATION OF M3U PLAYLISTS!

At that first re-boot of the J3 after creating playlists (which should be stored in \Playlists of the J3's internal storage) without the microSDHC card inserted, the M3U playlist files will be successfully analyzed and "cached", and will now correctly appear in [Playlists] without the dreaded .M3U extension.

This analysis and "caching" occurs on that first re-boot after the playlists are created, but only if the microSDHC card is NOT INSERTED.

Once this analysis/cache process completes (on that first re-boot), the microSDHC card can now be reinserted to restore the full capacity of the J3 for playing music. And those playlists which were properly analyzed during that first re-boot with the microSDHC card removed... well they will STILL BE AVAILABLE AND USABLE, even now that the microSDHC card has been reinserted.

NOTE: the implication here is clear, that NO FILES ON THE MICROSDHC CARD CAN BE NAMED IN M3U PLAYLISTS!!! In other words, with current 2.21 Cowon firmware only files on the internal storage of the J3 can be named in M3U playlist files.

Nevertheless, if you can live with these rules and limitations (including repeating the above special sequence if you want to update an existing playlist with a new version), it does appear that M3U playlist functionality DOES work on the J3.

On the other hand, you can delete an existing playlist if you want without needing to first remove the microSDHC card. The remaining previously "cached" playlists will still be usable. Only if you are updating an existing playlist (which should consist of a DELETE of the existing playlist, followed by a CREATE of the updated version) do you need to first remove the microSDHC card before the next re-boot, in order to get the updated playlist "cached" correctly.

Hopefully Cowon will provide software updates to allow access to the microSDHC card for playlist capability, and will also eliminate the need to first remove the card for that first re-boot following M3U playlist file creation in order to trigger the analysis and "cache" process, although it can then be reinserted after that and the cached playlists continue to be usable.

[Franki]

So DSperber, if I understand correctly, playlists do work, and it wasn't magic to get them working for me and others, because we don't have an SD-card?

[DSperber]

So DSperber, if I understand correctly, playlists do work, and it wasn't magic to get them working for me and others, because we don't have an SD-card?Exactly!!!

If you never had an external card, then M3U playlists ALWAYS WORKED!!! And just about any player, organizer, or playlist creater that could create M3U playlists would work. There wasn't just one that had some magic, and there was no need to post-edit and make them conform to some mystical special syntax. Any M3U playlist that provided fully qualified path/filename references to the named track files was fine... produced by any competent program.

And that's precisely why it NEVER worked for me, because I ALWAYS HAD THE CARD INSERTED in my J3!!

I still feel that this is deficient design, and that M3U playlists should really be supported for files on both internal and external storage. Hopefully Cowon will fix this eventually.

But even if they decide not to, at least the secret is out as to how to get M3U playlists to work even if they're restricted to accessing files on internal storage only. You just need to remove the external card temporarily after you create the playlists, re-boot to analyze/cache those new playlists and make them "usable", and then re-insert the external card to regain full capacity of the J3.

So for the time being, the external card is for anything you want to play/view but NOT put in a playlist. I can live with that limitation, now that I know of it.

[JMC Creative]

So, the first three following M3U playlist formats DO WORK FINE. Only the fourth "minimalist absolute" format (from MP3-Explorer) produces "No file"....
What about playlists created by Media Monkey? Did you try that program?

[DSperber]

What about playlists created by Media Monkey? Did you try that program?I don't use that program. Have no knowledge what it does, or anything about it.

As for myself, I actually use a Windows file-manager program named Beyond Compare for "syncing" and file management of anything in two folders on my PCs, including syncing folders/files between my hard drive D:\MP3 collection and the J3's internal and external storage drives (which happen to show up as R and S for me, when connected in MSC mode).

For playlists, I simply use Winamp... which is what I already use as my "player", and it has simple playlist functionality that also delivers everything I would need for the J3.

I have many other file managers and MP3 players that do similar things, as well as Playlist Creator and Cowon's JetAudio program (both of which were discovered during recent work playing with J3 and playlists), but will likely NEVER USE ANY OF THESE. I simply am used to Winamp and Beyond Compare which give me everything I want and need, and don't need to make any change here.

Similarly, I use MP3/Tag-Studio as my "post-creation tagger utility if needed", although I know MP3TAG also is a similar program that many others use. But ordinarily I don't need a "tagger", as Audiograbber produces ID3v1/ID3v2 tags perfectly when I initially create my MP3 files (from my own CDs, encoding with LAME and highest quality parameters).

But as I stated above, WHATEVER program you use to build M3U playlists (referencing music files ONLY on the J3's internal storage, most likely under \Music on the J3's internal storage, and stored in the \Playlists folder on the J3's internal storage)... as long as that playlist has one of the following formats (or similar) it should work. If Media Monkey builds playlists that look like these, then it should work.

Again, the key to success seems to be to remove the microSDHC card before that first re-boot following the creation/update of those M3U playlists on the J3... so as to trigger the apparent first-time analysis/caching of those playlists, which apparently will only occur if the external card is NOT INSERTED FOR THIS PARTICULAR RE-BOOT. Once the analysis/cache of the playlists is finished, you can power off the J3, reinsert the external card, and power the J3 back on. You should now still have your M3U playlists (from cache) and should also have full capacity of the J3 restored (if only to be able to play music from the external card, even if playlists don't support the external card).

Notes about the following three M3U formats, all of which DO work on the J3... (a) they are all of the #EXTM3U form, (b) they do NOT require track number to be in the file name, but they do NOT prevent track number from being in the file name, (c) they can name the track file with its absolute or relative fully-qualified name, and the J3 will ignore the Windows-known drive letter if present in that name, (d) it doesn't matter what the user's folder structure is that is implicit in these file names, since they are the true fully-qualified names which point precisely to where on the J3 the file can be found, and (e) it doesn't matter what your ID3 tags contain, and in particular your track number if present can be "n" or "n/m" without any consequence.

------------------------------------------------

(1) Produced by Cowon's JetAudio program: [works on the J3]

#EXTM3U
#EXTINF:255,Desperado
W:\Music\Eagles, The\Hell Freezes Over\Desperado.mp3
#EXTINF:432,Hotel California
W:\Music\Eagles, The\Hell Freezes Over\Hotel California.mp3


(2) Produced by Winamp: [works on the J3]

#EXTM3U
#EXTINF:255,Eagles, The - Desperado
\Music\Eagles, The\Hell Freezes Over\Desperado.mp3
#EXTINF:432,Eagles, The - Hotel California
\Music\Eagles, The\Hell Freezes Over\Hotel California.mp3


(3) Produced by Playlist Creator: [works on the J3]

#EXTM3U
#EXTINF:255,Hell Freezes Over - 15 - Desperado
..\Music\Eagles, The\Hell Freezes Over\Desperado.mp3
#EXTINF:432,Hell Freezes Over - 6 - Hotel California
..\Music\Eagles, The\Hell Freezes Over\Hotel California.mp3

[cpurick]

Maybe the problem with m3u lists and SDHC has to do with putting lists in one storage and songs in the other. Maybe you can have playlists on the card as long as they don't refer to songs in the built-in flash, and vice versa.

[DSperber]

Maybe the problem with m3u lists and SDHC has to do with putting lists in one storage and songs in the other. Maybe you can have playlists on the card as long as they don't refer to songs in the built-in flash, and vice versa.Not in my own personal experience.

Based on a tip from another forum member who'd discovered the "secret" to getting M3U playlists to work (i.e. that (a) they are really usable to play music, and (b) do not show the .M3U extension under [Playlists], and (c) do not result in "No File" when you tap the playlist name), it is necessary to remove the external card before the next re-boot that will analyze/cache the M3U playlist[s] you just created or maintained.

This requirement, in and of itself, precludes any playlist (a) from physically residing anywhere except on the internal storage of the J3, and (b) from referencing any track which would not be on internal storage of the J3.

Once the analysis/cache process at that first re-boot is done, you can now reinsert the external card and not impact the usability of the just-analyzed M3U playlists. But you can only have (a) playlist files stored on internal storage, and (b) referenced tracks stored on internal storage.

It has been noted elsewhere that putting M3U playlist files on external storage (presumably trying to access music files also on external storage) results in terrible J3 malfunction results.

That's just my own personal experience. Once I started using the "remove external card before that first crucial re-boot" trick (and accepting its limitation of referenced files on internal storage only) my M3U playlist functionality started working as I'd hoped, albeit limited to music files on internal storage only. Before that, I could never ever get them to work.

I'm hoping Cowon will address this M3U playlist issue in an upcoming firmware release, and thus permit referenced files to be on both internal and external storage. But for now... not.