Testing of H264 Codec Main Profile.

[bootlegapparel]

Well I've just done some testing myself. Some weird but good and interesting results...

Firmware 1.18.

I'm using SUPER to do the encoding 29.97 FPS.

I used two files, the first one fucked up so I started using a different one.

First file was a WMA; 1900kbps Video, WMA audio as well. I set it to 336kbps for all of the first tests and the audio was just a straight copy on these first 4, so still in WMA format.


H264 BP 760x576:
No problems. No sound though.

H264 BP 1280x760:
Plays slowly. Probably 15 FPS. No sound.[thumbdwn]

H264 MP 320x240:
Plays in fast forward??? No sound.[thumbdwn]

H264 MP 760x576:
Says does not support high resolution???[thumbdwn]

I used a different starting video for these next ones, an MPEG-1, 3900 kbps. Seemed like the last file kept fucking up my results so i started again.
Audio was re-encoded to 128kbps for all of these. 29FPS. H264 Main profile.

H264 MP 480x320 360kbps:
Works perfectly fine.

H264 MP 480x320 2.0 360kbps:
Works fine.

H264 MP 480x320 630kbps:
Works fine.

H264 MP 480x320 1000kbps:
Works perfectly fine. Looks great too :)[thumbsup]

H264 MP 640x480 360kbps:
Works fine.

H264 MP 640x480 750kbps:
Works fine.[thumbsup]

H264 MP 720x480 360kbps:
Works fine.

H264 MP 720x480 1.1 360kbps:
Works fine.

H264 MP 720x480 500kbps:
Works fine.

H264 MP 720x480 500kbps 5.1:
Works fine.

H264 MP 720x480 1000kbps:
Works fine.

H264 MP 720x480 1200kbps 5.1:
Works fine.

H264 MP 720x480 1500kbps:
Works okay, maybe a little slowdown. Probably would get annoying and not watchable.

H264 MP 800x480 500kbps:
Same slow down as below.

H264 MP 800x480 1000kbps:
Same slow down as below.

H264 MP 800x480 1500kbps:
Same slow down as below.

H264 MP 720x480 2000kbps:
Some intermittent skipping, not really watchable.

H264 MP 800x640 550kbps:
Works, but there is a slight slow down, over a period of 1min the audio was about 5 seconds ahead of the video

H264 MP 800x640 1000kbps:
Same slow down as above.

H264 MP 720x480 1000kbps feature length (hour and a bit long movie):
Seems fine.


So there you go, Main profile works fine. It's just it seems to have a max resolution of 720x480 and a max bit rate of around 1200kbps for it to play back without any slowdown.

Can't really explain the first file though, it did not play sound in that one either, maybe it was the WMA that fucked it up or something not sure? Maybe it's a bit temperamental. But the second file I used, I had absolutely no trouble with.

[bootlegapparel]

Anyone know any programs like super that have H264 High profile so I can do some testing on that?

Also, doesn't anyone care that main profile works fine? lol

[sdlvx]

Everyone is too busy talking about how Cowon sold us a PMP that claims to do h.264MP and doesn't to read this thread.

But i highly appreciate your testing. It's good to see everything is improving. Maybe just a little bit more, and we'll be there.

[pmrdij]

Everyone is too busy talking about how Cowon sold us a PMP that claims to do h.264MP and doesn't to read this thread.

But i highly appreciate your testing. It's good to see everything is improving. Maybe just a little bit more, and we'll be there.
LOL, i read this several times yesterday so i am sure a large portion of the "views" statistic figure is due to me. as for the appreciation i second that. i'm going to give SUPER a shot here soon as judging by my results with XviD b-frames/qpel/gmc it isn't the encoder i should be bothering with.

- Robert (PmR)DeathInJune

[WizMaster]

Hmm, interesting. Does MP automagically include B-frames? I think that's what causes a lot of issues (even on XVID). Also, according to the new firmware (which has some issues with it so I reverted back for now) they are now testing HP support. I couldn't do much testing before (new job, woot) but I will try to test as much as possible now. I just need to find good tools and a few tutorials (if needed). I think I'll use Elephant's Dream for testing.

[bootlegapparel]

Hmm, interesting. Does MP automagically include B-frames? I think that's what causes a lot of issues (even on XVID). Also, according to the new firmware (which has some issues with it so I reverted back for now) they are now testing HP support. I couldn't do much testing before (new job, woot) but I will try to test as much as possible now. I just need to find good tools and a few tutorials (if needed). I think I'll use Elephant's Dream for testing.

No, not that I can see anyways, B-frames is an option in SUPER, so I might try some ones with B-frames and see how they go later on.

[austinv]

Good effort, but your conclusion is incorrect.

The spec for H264-MP includes b-frames. See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264

The current firmware does not play H264 video correctly if it was encoded with b-frames. Hence, H264 Main Profile does not work.

I have tested it thoroughly with several encoders. See here:
http://www.iaudiophile.net/forums/showpost.php?p=169308&postcount=24
http://www.iaudiophile.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20153
http://www.iaudiophile.net/forums/showthread.php?t=18637

IIRC, SUPER is simply a front-end for ffmeg and/or mencoder. If you encode video using the "Main Profile" setting in an application, but you don't use the "b-frames" option, you are basically encoding with the "Base Profile" spec since that is one of the main difference between them.

Please edit your post accordingly or I will, so as not to confuse people. Thanks. :)

[pmrdij]

No, not that I can see anyways, B-frames is an option in SUPER, so I might try some ones with B-frames and see how they go later on.
wait so b-frames weren't used in your testing [cursing]? ban him Austin [laugh].

well this is just about it for me... if i can get 1280x720 XviD with b-frames/qpel/gmc working through SUPER i might be happy enough to keep my A3 but seriously i bought it with H.264-MP being the primary point of interest. sure hope i see a firmware update somewhere in the next 10 days before my 30 day return window closes..

- Robert (PmR)DeathInJune

[bootlegapparel]

So if B-frames are an integral part of H264 main profile, why are they an option?
That's supers fault then... :P

And I just did 3 quick simple tests:

Main Profile Level 1.

B frames number:2

720x480 500kbps
480x320 300kbps
320x240 300kbps

They all work fine.


Austin give SUPER a go in case i'm doing something wrong, but they're all working for me.


I'm a bit bored so i'll try out MediaCoder and see if it's different to Super.

[bootlegapparel]

same thing with mediacoder.

The only limit seems to be that you need not expect TOO much and just keep the resolution down a little lower, seems like the processor can't keep up with higher res.

in fact i'd say if you're going for Main profile, at least with the ones i've encoded, you need to sit around 640x480 maximum.

[Nodnol]

If Austinv doesn't give a go - I will at the weekend. It's still not really HD if you can have such a limited resolution - but you can't say it doesn't support MP when if it does???

I think you have done some great testing here, even if it's not what we want from the machine.

If it can be corroborated, bootlegapparel should be applauded for all the work he has put into this.

[bootlegapparel]

Or be terribly laughed at when it turns out i've made some really simple silly mistake [rofl]

but yeah as far as i can tell everythings fine, but i'm no pro at this

[pmrdij]

Or be terribly laughed at when it turns out i've made some really simple silly mistake [rofl]

but yeah as far as i can tell everythings fine, but i'm no pro at this
i'm not laughing --> i took the 1.18beta plunge earlier this evening (so far no ill results as a result of such that i can find). then i used MediaCoder to produce a 1000kbps 720x480 .mp4 file using level 1 (not sure if you experienced this but i had to set that in the Advanced panel) and b-frames = 2. audio was LC-AAC 160kbps. for the most part this was a playable file, however, there were some slow downs experienced and some frame drops here and there.

going to re-encode the same file using 128 on the audio and see if that has any impact. if not i'll lower the kbps on the video and so on.

- Robert (PmR)DIJ

[bootlegapparel]

i'm not laughing --> i took the 1.18beta plunge earlier this evening (so far no ill results as a result of such that i can find). then i used MediaCoder to produce a 1000kbps 720x480 .mp4 file using level 1 (not sure if you experienced this but i had to set that in the Advanced panel) and b-frames = 2. audio was LC-AAC 160kbps. for the most part this was a playable file, however, there were some slow downs experienced and some frame drops here and there.

going to re-encode the same file using 128 on the audio and see if that has any impact. if not i'll lower the kbps on the video and so on.

- Robert (PmR)DIJ

Maybe try using just simple MP3 with 128 and see how that goes, also from my testing I wouldn't advise anything over 1000kbps.

But yeah, good to see someone else can get it working too.

[elviselvis]

to make .mp4 h264 files playable you have to do this:

1) disable CABAC
2) set maximum number of b-frames to zero
3) disable deblocking (to aviod graphical bugs)
4) h264 level set to 5.1
5) maximal bitrate set to 2000 kbps (at 3000 kbps A3 start to skipping frames)
6) number of reference frames set to 6 (7 or more A3 will not play, shows only black picture and plays only audio)
7) limit maximal resolution into rectangle into 800x480 because in this resolution A3 don`t have to resize it while playing (so allowed resolutions are for example 800x300 or 640x480), in higher it skipping frames and audio/video asychronization appear
note: this is not so important to be exactly display`s 800x480, you can set it to lower values because due to this bug http://iaudiophile.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20188 in Cowon A3 firmware will be unfortunately always video viewed blurred (no matter what resolution it has)
8) audio codec to AAC-LC (low-complexity profile) up to 160 kpbs stereo
9) use .mp4 container, NOT .AVI !!!!!! because avi is not suited to h264, avi is very old container which will carry h264 only with problems

[bootlegapparel]

elviselvis I've found that the limitations are much harsher than what you've got. Though I use .AVI as a container not sure if it makes a difference.
But at least in my experience, B-frames doesn't make a huge difference.

[elviselvis]

elviselvis I've found that the limitations are much harsher than what you've got. Though I use .AVI as a container not sure if it makes a difference.
But at least in my experience, B-frames doesn't make a huge difference.

use .mp4 container, NOT .AVI !!!!!! because avi is not suited to h264, avi is very old container which will carry h264 only with problems

[bootlegapparel]

hmm, interesting, i'll try out mp4 then and see if i can get some improvements, cheers

[bootlegapparel]

Okay so I've done these in Mediacoder all with .MP4 as the container, mp3 128kbps:

640x480, H264 level 5.1, 1000kbps, b-frames:2:
Perfect
640x480, H264 level 5.1, 2000kbps, b-frames:2:
Perfect
720x480, H264 level 5.1, 500kbps, b-frames:2:
Perfect
720x480, H264 level 1, 1000kbps, b-frames:2:
Perfect
720x480, H264 level 5.1, 1000kbps, b-frames:2:
Perfect
720x480, H264 level 5.1, 1200kbps, b-frames:2:
Perfect
720x480, H264 level 5.1, 1500kbps, b-frames:2:
Perfect
720x480, H264 level 5.1, 2000kbps, b-frames:2:
Slowdown
800x480, H264 level 5.1, 500kbps, b-frames:2:
Perfect
800x480, H264 level 5.1, 700kbps, b-frames:2:
Perfect
800x480, H264 level 5.1, 1000kbps, b-frames:2:
Slowdown
800x480, H264 level 5.1, 2000kbps, b-frames:2:
Slowdown

I also re-encoded the first file that stuffed up, it seems if you have wma audio it fucks it for some reason. At least as far as i can tell. They work fine same spec as the others with 3 b-frames instead.


And for a laugh this one, maxed out everything:
640x480, H264 level 5.1, 2000kbps, b-frames:16, Subpel refinement 7, mot ets range 64, predictor frames 16:
nah crashes it, haha
Seems like .MP4 for me gives a slight increase in that it can handle a bit more of a bit rate, the resolution I still think is limited to about 720x480 for about 1000kbps or 640x480 for a little more bit rate.


For a quality issue, the best by far has been 720x480 with 1500kbps. But that seems like the very upper limit, I'm gonna try a full movie with those settings to make sure it doesn't slow down on a large file.

[bootlegapparel]

Just did a little more testing:

720x480, H264 level 5.1, 1200kbps, b-frames:9:
Perfect
720x480, H264 level 5.1, 1500kbps, b-frames:3, 200mb Full length Futurama episode:
Absolutely beautiful

So adding extra b-frames doesn't seem to make a difference, and the full length movie should be fine as long as you don't go overboard with the resolution or the bitrate.


So yeah, good news i guess.

[austinv]

I started another round of testing last night, with interesting results. My source was a 720p movie trailer from Apple, transcoding to H264 1000kbs 720x304 video with AAC 128kbs 2ch audio in a MP4 container.

During testing, I found these questions are pertinent to the discussion:

1) the use of what features, and to what degree, constitutes Main Profile? I find that apps with a "Main Profile" setting do not encode with the same options.

2) how can you verify a particular video was encoded with b-frames or some other option during encoding? I can use a program like YAMB to split a raw H264 stream from a video, and a program like InfoMedia to tell what level and profile it was encoded with, but it doesn't report anything about b-frames or other encoding options. G-spot doesn't help either.

Testing:

Using SUPER, video encoded with the "Main Profile" switch, with or without b-frames (2) enabled, does play normally on the A3. However, the program is vague about what options it using during encoding so I can't tell if this is really Main Profile. It's suspicious that b-frames is an "option" with Main Profile selected, it should be included by default AFAIK. I can't seem to find a place where it shows the options it using for the CLI of ffmeg/mencoder/x264/etc. Anyone know..?

Staxrip does have clearly defined encoding options for Base and Main Profile. Encode a video in H264-BP and it plays normally on the A3. Encode it with H264-MP and it the video is all blocky. The nice thing about Staxrip is that it lets you edit the encoding options for these profiles, so I can select Base or Main profile and add or remove options to find what is causing trouble on the A3. I determined that you can encode using the Main Profile if you turn off just one option, a b-frame option called "pyramid" encoding. This leads me to think that the problems with H.264 compatibility are no longer specific to the use of b-frames themselves, but are instead due to some encoding options related to them.

Staxrip Main Profile, CLI example:
x264.exe --bitrate 1009 --ref 3 --bframes 3 --b-pyramid --weightb --b-rdo --bime --analyse p8x8,b8x8,i4x4,p4x4 --subme 6 --trellis 1 --mixed-refs --progress --threads auto --no-psnr --no-ssim --thread-input --output

In the GUI, after you select the Main Profile for your encode, you have to click on the text where it says "H.264 Main Profile|MP4" to change the settings. Go to the b-frames section and uncheck "Pyramid". This will remove the "--b-pyramid" option from when it programs the CLI for x264 encoding.

Compare the above H264-MP to this CLI for H264 High Profile:
x264.exe --bitrate 1008 --ref 3 --bframes 3 --b-pyramid --weightb --b-rdo --bime --analyse all --8x8dct --subme 6 --trellis 1 --mixed-refs --progress --threads auto --no-psnr --no-ssim --thread-input --output

Note the main difference is the "--8x8dct" thing.

MediaCoder is another great front-end for the same programs behind SUPER, Staxrip, etc. They all use the same open-source encoders (ffmeg/mencoder/x264/etc). So H264-MP works in Staxrip, it will work in the others if they make it possible to set them with the right options.

MediaCoder does not have clearly defined profiles for H264-BP and MP. From what I can tell, the default H264 settings are all over the place in terms of BP/MP/HP, with some settings that would normally apply to each.

in MC the default options for the CLI of x264 looks like this:
x264.exe - --keyint 250 --min-keyint 25 --bframes 3 --bime --level 40 --direct auto --mixed-refs --weightb --8x8dct --quiet --no-psnr --no-ssim --progress --bitrate $(VideoBitrate) --qcomp 0.75 --threads auto --subme 5 --ref 1 --trellis 1 --me hex --merange 16 -o "$(DestFile)

You can change these settings but the wording is sometimes confusing as to what affects what. I did find the option to remove "--b-pyramid" from encoding (it was on by default when using more than 2 b-frames) but still had a problem with playback on the A3, so there are other options that need to be adjusted here. Probably something with the "--8x8dct" option since is one used under the High Profile in Staxrip and I don't expect the A3 to support High Profile type options.

That's all I have for now, I still have more testing/research to do.

[pmrdij]

Maybe try using just simple MP3 with 128 and see how that goes, also from my testing I wouldn't advise anything over 1000kbps.

But yeah, good to see someone else can get it working too.
well i encoded three .mp4 files (using MediaCoder) after my last post with 128kbps LC-AAC audio and video rates of 850, 1000 and 1200. loaded them up on my way to work this morning and i've got what looks like video through a blender with each of them.

i've noticed in my H.264-MP testing that the player has significant issues with playback when it is not connected directly to the AC Adapter. sadly i don't have the adapter with me currently so i'll have to see how these files turn out when i get home and report back.

- Robert (PmR)DeathInJune

[austinv]

Robert,

I think that is because MediaCoder uses H264-HP settings by default.

Put MediaCoder in Expert Mode, then go the x264 tab, and see what Profile it is set to. If it is set to Auto, that's nearly the same thing as High Profile. Click on the Video Options tab and you can see the options it will feed x264 in that mode. Both Auto and High Profiles use the "--b-pyramid" option which I know doesn't work on the A3, and the "--8x8dct" encoding option which is specific to High Profile.

Instead, set the Profile to Main Profile, then click on the Advanced button, and change "B-frames used as for predicting" (aka, Pyramid encoding!) to No, which sets the value to False. That should work, though I was still having trouble last night, so there may be some other option it is using that is not compatible with the A3. I'm going to figure that out when I get home tonight. But I know if Staxrip can use x264 to produce workable H264-MP (including b-frames, but not b-Pyramids) then MediaCoder can, once the optioning is right...

This stuff is a PITA!

Cowon could save us all a lot of effort by publishing a procedure that works, including specific apps, encoders, settings, etc. If they knew.

[pmrdij]

Robert,

I think that is because MediaCoder uses H264-HP settings by default.

Put MediaCoder in Expert Mode, then go the x264 tab, and see what Profile it is set to. If it is set to Auto, that's nearly the same thing as High Profile. Click on the Video Options tab and you can see the options it will feed x264 in that mode. Both Auto and High Profiles use the "--b-pyramid" option which I know doesn't work on the A3, and the "--8x8dct" encoding option which is specific to High Profile.

Instead, set the Profile to Main Profile, then click on the Advanced button, and change "B-frames used as for predicting" (aka, Pyramid encoding!) to No, which sets the value to False. That should work, though I was still having trouble last night, so there may be some other option it is using that is not compatible with the A3. I'm going to figure that out when I get home tonight. But I know if Staxrip can use x264 to produce workable H264-MP (including b-frames, but not b-Pyramids) then MediaCoder can, once the optioning is right...

This stuff is a PITA!

Cowon could save us all a lot of effort by publishing a procedure that works, including specific apps, encoders, settings, etc. If they knew.
will have to try this all at home later tonight as well. hadn't gone into expert mode until trying it out a second ago here at work --> isn't any different from clicking advanced under x264 (at least to me). the "Profile" is indeed set to Auto (never touched this option in the prefs until now). "B-frames used as for predicting" is actually set to "false" already.

with regard to the "--8x8dct" encoding option --> i see a line in the advanced settings for "Eliminate DCT blocks with small coefficient" which is set to "true". details say:

Eliminate dct blocks in P-frames containing only a small single coefficient. This will remove some details, so it will save bits that can be spent again on other frames, hopefully raising overall subjective quality. If you are compressing non-anime content with a high target bitrate, you may want to disable this to preserve as much detail as possible.

i assume that needs to be set to "false".

totally agreed about Cowon when it comes to putting out something in the way of documentation/information in respect to getting -MP to work. seeing as they claim -HP works with the beta i'd love to know how they achieved that..

- Robert (PmR)DIJ

[pmrdij]

huh, just downloaded 0.6.14068 of MediaCoder at home. don't recall seeing the drop down for the "Profile" in "Normal Mode" earlier today but my brain was a bit tied up earlier and i was one hand typing thanks to cutting the bejeebus out of my left thumb on our server this morning (so bad that i spilled blood in the chassis...). i always say whenever doing something with a machine it is important to sacrifice to the great computer gods but dang. anyhow didn't even see posts 16-20.. went straight to AustinV's. am now home and am going to get some encoding on and see if i net the same results as bootlegapparel.

- Robert (PmR)DIJ

[jayillmatic]

What i did like to know is i do i get the subtitles on the A3 for the H.264 files with embedded English sub.

[pmrdij]

an update: any .mp4 i create with the audio being in .mp3 is coming up on my A3 as being in the "Wrong file format". all information about the files read as follows:

SIZE
0x0, Unknown
0.00fps, 0kbps
00:00:00, Unknown
0kHz, 0kbps

was there any special trick involved to use .mp3 with H.264 and .mp4 as the container?

- Robert (PmR)DIJ

[bootlegapparel]

So I'm doing some testing here:

These are the MediaCoder options for the first seven tests:
Profile=Main
Predictor Frames=1,
Motion Est. Mode=Normal,
Motion Est. Range=16
Level=5.1
B-frames=3
Subpel Refinement=5

MKV instead of .MP4 or .AVI in 720x480 1000kbps MP B-frames = 3 seems to create slowdown and stuttering.

CABAC in 720x480 1000kbps MP B-frames = 3 makes no difference on or off.

B-Pyramids in 720x480 1000kbps MP B-frames = 3 makes no difference

8x8DCT in 720x480 1000kbps MP B-frames = 3 creates a slowdown

B-pyramids and 8x8DCT in 720x480 1000kbps MP B-frames = 3 creates the same slowdown as just 8x8

I mucked around with some settings and used this in 720x480 1000kbps MP B-frames = 3:
[1] ".\codecs\x264.exe" - --keyint 250 --min-keyint 25 --bframes 3 --bime --level 51 --direct auto --mixed-refs --b-rdo --b-pyramid --weightb --8x8dct --quiet --no-psnr --no-ssim --progress --bitrate $(VideoBitrate) --qcomp 0.6 --threads auto --subme 5 --ref 1 --trellis 1 --me hex --merange 16 -o "$(DestFile)"
= Slowdown on 720x480 1000kbps, okay on 500kbps, okay on 640x480 1000kbps, so another processor limit

Same as above just with 8x8 disabled in 720x480 1000kbps: Fine

Then I did some high profile testing in mediacoder, here's the code:

These are the mediaCoder options I used for the next lot of tests:
Profile=High
Predictor Frames=1,
Motion Est. Mode=Normal,
Motion Est. Range=16
Level=5.1
B-frames=3
Subpel Refinement=5
[1] ".\codecs\x264.exe" "$(SourceFile)" --quiet --no-psnr --no-ssim --keyint 250 --min-keyint 25 --level 51 --me hex --merange 16 --non-deterministic --ref 1 --subme 5 --partitions all --8x8dct --bframes 3 --direct auto --trellis 1 --bime --b-pyramid --bitrate $(VideoBitrate) --qcomp 0.6 --threads auto -o "$(DestFile)"

High profile option in MediaCoder 320x240 1000kbps Fine

High profile option in MediaCoder 640x480 1000kbps Very slight slowdown, no good for long files

High profile option in MediaCoder 640x480 500kbps Fine

High profile option in MediaCoder 720x480 1000kbps Slowdown

High profile option in MediaCoder 720x480 500kbps Fine


So it looks like Cowon weren't lying, HP seems to work (if mediaCoder isn't playing tricks on me) but it has strict resolution and bitrate limits. No doubt due to the processor. Maybe it can be optimised I dunno?

It seems like it's the 8x8DCT that makes the difference in slowdown in high resolutions, but it's the 8x8DCT that defines it as HP instead of MP i'm pretty sure. So yeah... low resolutions only.

an update: any .mp4 i create with the audio being in .mp3 is coming up on my A3 as being in the "Wrong file format". all information about the files read as follows:

SIZE
0x0, Unknown
0.00fps, 0kbps
00:00:00, Unknown
0kHz, 0kbps

was there any special trick involved to use .mp3 with H.264 and .mp4 as the container?

- Robert (PmR)DIJ

Sounds like a problem occured while encoding.

Couple more quick tests:

High profile option in MediaCoder 720x480 700kbps No go, slowdown

Full length 720x480 H264 HP 500kbps:Plays fine, though doesn't look that hot frankly

500kbps is the limit for 720x480, 700kbps seems to be the limit for 640x480. It's like a balancing act.




The best looking/easiest to get to work file in the end I reckon has been 720x480 MP ~1400kbps.

[pmrdij]

ok so in regards to my issue above where .mp3 in my .mp4 wouldn't work and everything but the file size was reported as:

0x0, Unknown
0.00fps, 0kbps
00:00:00, Unknown
0kHz, 0kbps

in the -MP not supported use -BP thread the process with MediaCoder noted possibly having to uncheck "Auto select" next to both the Source and Encoder boxes on the Video tab setting both to MEncoder. i've been doing that ever since by default. doing so produced the result above. leaving the boxes checked resulted in an .mp4 file (an extra from the Balls of Fury DVD) that is read by the A3 and does play but has skipping video and sync issues with the audio..

720x480, H264-MP level 5.1, 1500kbps, b-frames:3, 128kbps .mp3

audio info:

".\codecs\lame.exe" - "$(DestFile)" --quiet -r -s $(SampleRate) --cbr -b 128 --replaygain-fast --add-id3v2

video info:

[1] ".\codecs\x264.exe" - --quiet --no-psnr --no-ssim --keyint 250 --min-keyint 25 --level 51 --me hex --merange 16 --non-deterministic --ref 1 --subme 5 --bframes 3 --direct auto --trellis 1 --bime --bitrate $(VideoBitrate) --qcomp 0.6 --threads auto -o "$(DestFile)"


- Robert (PmR)DeathInJune

[bootlegapparel]

I've always had my "auto select" boxes checked, never tried without them checked so i couldn't say what happens then.


I'd drop the bitrate down to 1000kbps or the resolution down a little and see if there's an improvement Robert. The video/audio sync is a problem with the A3 not having enough processor power.
I'd get a small 1minute file and test with that so you don't have to wait ages for transcoding.

But otherwise I can't see a problem with your settings.

[pmrdij]

I've always had my "auto select" boxes checked, never tried without them checked so i couldn't say what happens then.


I'd drop the bitrate down to 1000kbps or the resolution down a little and see if there's an improvement Robert. The video/audio sync is a problem with the A3 not having enough processor power.
I'd get a small 1minute file and test with that so you don't have to wait ages for transcoding.

But otherwise I can't see a problem with your settings.
well 1000kbps was better but eventually the skipping began and the audio lost sync. not going to touch the screen resolution as the intent of my purchasing my A3 was to use a 720p LCD with it in my living room whenever my partner and i wished to watch something at home rather than my building a $400+ media PC to sit dormant seeing as her and i watch a film at home maybe once a month.. this is quite aggravating to say the least.

720x480, H264 level 1, 1000kbps, b-frames:2:
Perfect
720x480, H264 level 5.1, 1000kbps, b-frames:2:
Perfect
720x480, H264 level 5.1, 1200kbps, b-frames:2:
Perfect
720x480, H264 level 5.1, 1500kbps, b-frames:2:
Perfect

tried each of these thus far.. not sure if there is a way to tell but seeing as i am cloning your procedure on three systems (encoding has simultaneously been performed on a Barton XP 2.2GHz based machine, a Mobile Athlon 64 2.4GHz and Opteron 165 2.775GHz) perhaps my A3's DaVinci chip is a PoS.

- Robert (PmR)DeathInJune

[pmrdij]

can someone download this and test the files within please? three .mp4's with 128kbps .mp3 and the following parameters (encoding done with MediaCoder):

720x480, H.264-MP 1500kbps
720x480, H.264-MP 1200kbps
720x480, H.264-MP 1000kbps

audio:

".\codecs\lame.exe" - "$(DestFile)" --quiet -r -s $(SampleRate) --cbr -b 128 --replaygain-fast --add-id3v2

--

video (two pass):

[1] ".\codecs\x264.exe" "$(SourceFile)" --quiet --no-psnr --no-ssim --keyint 250 --min-keyint 25 --level 51 --me hex --merange 16 --non-deterministic --subme 1 --ref 1 --bframes 2 --direct auto --trellis 1 --bime --bitrate $(VideoBitrate) --qcomp 0.6 --threads auto --stats "$(PassLogFile)" --pass 1 -o NUL

[2] ".\codecs\x264.exe" "$(SourceFile)" --quiet --no-psnr --no-ssim --keyint 250 --min-keyint 25 --level 51 --me hex --merange 16 --non-deterministic --ref 1 --subme 5 --bframes 2 --direct auto --trellis 1 --bime --bitrate $(VideoBitrate) --qcomp 0.6 --threads auto --stats "$(PassLogFile)" --pass 2 -o "$(DestFile)"

original file is a 169MB .VOB file ripped from my Balls of Fury DVD. 6:39 minutes in length...

for myself my A3 begins to drop/skip frames and/or lose audio sync right about when Diedrich Bader enters the room in the first few seconds of the video. if it plays 100% smoothly or not on your A3 could you let me know please (preferably before Monday 06:00PST)? i am mimicing bootlegapparel's working settings of which reportedly have no issue here:

http://iaudiophile.net/forums/showpost.php?p=172899&postcount=19

thanks!

- Robert (PmR)DIJ

[bootlegapparel]

tried each of these thus far.. not sure if there is a way to tell but seeing as i am cloning your procedure on three systems (encoding has simultaneously been performed on a Barton XP 2.2GHz based machine, a Mobile Athlon 64 2.4GHz and Opteron 165 2.775GHz) perhaps my A3's DaVinci chip is a PoS.

- Robert (PmR)DeathInJune

For tests I've been using short files to save transcoding time, bout 1 minute each. So I've only tested a full length video when I've written it down. That'd be the difference between what you've got and what I've got. It'd take forever to do all the tests on a 30 min or more file. But it's interesting to know that the length of the movie can have an impact as well.

It looks like even the file size has an impact if over time it starts losing sync.


So the real limiters it seems for the A3 are:

8x8DCT
Resolution
Bit rate
File size/length

I'm hoping they can improve it with future firmware.

I'll give your file a go.

[pmrdij]

For tests I've been using short files to save transcoding time, bout 1 minute each. So I've only tested a full length video when I've written it down. That'd be the difference between what you've got and what I've got. It'd take forever to do all the tests on a 30 min or more file. But it's interesting to know that the length of the movie can have an impact as well.

It looks like even the file size has an impact if over time it starts losing sync.


So the real limiters it seems for the A3 are:

8x8DCT
Resolution
Bit rate
File size/length

I'm hoping they can improve it with future firmware.

I'll give your file a go.
thanks --> just curious if these play on yours or anyone else's given that you had that Futurama (nice choice btw) 200MB file playback with 1500kbps, b-frames:3. i know that a cartoon is technically simple in its complexity compared to the video i am using here but after seeing that work for you i'm at a loss to why this 169MB file tanks on my A3 if file size is in fact an issue (mine is the lesser of the two). anyhow i just formatted my A3 in hopes that somehow someway that has been my problem. have just ten days to go before my option to return this to the retailer closes and with no firmware update in sight that's pulling at me (i'd hold out hope but with shipping RMA's and adding an additional two year warranty through the retailer this unit has hit me for well over $500 and to have these issues with what is advertised as supported is unacceptable).

- Robert (PmR)DIJ

[vlada]

austinv
If you try the latest MediaInfo, it should show you all the options used to encode a H.264 video if it was made with x264. And it woks even without demuxing.

[bootlegapparel]

Yep, I can confirm Robert those files don't play well, there's slow-down.

First thing I saw was that I was encoding at 25 FPS instead of 29.7.
Maybe that's the difference?


I tried re-incoding your file at 25FPS instead and yeah it works fine.

1000kbps and 1200kbps i tried.

[pmrdij]

Yep, I can confirm Robert those files don't play well, there's slow-down.

First thing I saw was that I was encoding at 25 FPS instead of 29.7.
Maybe that's the difference?


I tried re-incoding your file at 25FPS instead and yeah it works fine.

1000kbps and 1200kbps i tried.
[shocked], 25FPS rather than 29.97/30? weird. encoding that now. according to what i got from their marketing/tech support up to and including 30FPS was fine with H.264 but if this actually works i'll see how things go with LC-AAC in the mix.

- Robert (pMr)dIj

[pmrdij]

ok so some interesting/odd results.

despite leaving the checkbox in MediaCoder checked to fix the video at 25FPS the file comes out as being 30FPS according to my A3. now here's the odd part.

720x480, H.264-MP 1200kbps level 5.1 with 2 B-frames and 128kbps LC-AAC
slowdown/frame drops/audio sync lost

720x480, H.264-MP 1200kbps level 5.1 with 2 B-frames and 160kbps LC-AAC
slowdown/frame drops/audio sync lost

720x480, H.264-MP 1200kbps level 5.1 with 3 B-frames and 128kbps LC-AAC
slowdown/frame drops/audio sync lost

720x480, H.264-MP 1200kbps level 5.1 with 3 B-frames and 160kbps LC-AAC
playback is perfect with one flaw observed. towards the end of the video an outdoor area scene looks like it has been flushed through a Photoshop filter to neon glow all of the edges

still testing with LC-AAC as the highest quality audio is my desire here (though i despise Apple in ways that few companies know).

- Robert (PmR)DIJ

[bootlegapparel]

Hmmm, interesting, I haven't tried out any AAC so i really couldn't say what that does, but I reckon if you went to 1000kbps at 25fps it should be fine.
You're on the upper limit of what the A3 can handle atm.

[pmrdij]

Hmmm, interesting, I haven't tried out any AAC so i really couldn't say what that does, but I reckon if you went to 1000kbps at 25fps it should be fine.
You're on the upper limit of what the A3 can handle atm.
ok so --> isolated the problem source of which caused one of the outdoor area scenes to look like it had been flushed through a Photoshop filter to neon glow all of the edges. had been using "Bitrate-based" for my "Mode" to expedite encoding. changing to "Two-pass" fixed it. in the end with 160kbps LC-AAC what was 100% playable without any issue was

720x480, H.264-MP 1000kbps level 5.1 with 3 B-frames and 160kbps LC-AAC

i did not experiment with additional B-frames as all other efforts were focused at 1200kbps. it's close to perfect but the audio loses sync with the video at times. i would imagine that

720x480, H.264-MP 1200kbps level 5.1 with 3 B-frames and 160kbps LC-AAC
or
720x480, H.264-MP 1500kbps level 5.1 with 3 B-frames and 160kbps LC-AAC

would be fine for anything animated. going to rip one of my partners InvaderZim DVD's and find out if that is the case here asap.

- Robert (PmR)DeathInJune

[bootlegapparel]

Have you tried any with MP3 instead of the apple codec? Maybe that'll give an advantage?


But in the end what we can conclude from this is that the A3 does have full support for H264 in BP, MP, and HP. It's just that it can't really handle the high spec stuff, but it can do the low-tech stuff fine.

[pmrdij]

Have you tried any with MP3 instead of the apple codec? Maybe that'll give an advantage?


But in the end what we can conclude from this is that the A3 does have full support for H264 in BP, MP, and HP. It's just that it can't really handle the high spec stuff, but it can do the low-tech stuff fine.
have not gone back and tried a higher video bit-rate with the audio as MP3 no (immediately went to encoding my first full DVD with the working 1000kbps setting above. i would imagine that MP3 is easier for the A3 to handle compared to AAC and that might give an advantage in opening up the option for a higher video bit-rate. will have to check on that later as the second pass of my current encoding just began (my A64 and Opteron systems are tied up with other tasks so my old Barton system is the horse this evening).

thanks for all of your efforts and assistance again btw.

edit: before i left for work this morning i started up an encoding task --> 720x480, H.264-MP 1200kbps level 5.1 with 3 B-frames and 192kbps (CBR) .mp3

will see how that plays/sounds when i get home this evening.

- Robert (PmR)DeathInJune

[pmrdij]

720x480, H.264-MP 1200kbps level 5.1 with 3 B-frames and 192kbps (CBR) .mp3

fell apart after about two minutes into playback. audio lost sync and video began dropping/skipping frames and on one playback attempt completely halted on one frame while the audio ran on. looks like if you are going to do .mp3 for the audio 128kbps is where you'd want to stay. personally between that and AAC 160kbps i'd go with the AAC.

hopefully the next firmware and those to follow will improve on the -MP and -HP support currently present but like bootlegapparel said --> the A3 does have full support for H264 in -BP, -MP and -HP so long as you don't shoot for insane quality.

- Robert (PmR)DeathInJune

[pmrdij]

well some news.. of the two full length films (Balls of Fury and Superbad) that i've encoded thus far both were encoded with: 720x480, H.264-MP 1000kbps level 5.1 with 3 B-frames and 160kbps LC-AAC.

my A3 reports the file "Balls of Fury.mp4" as having a video bit-rate of 212kbps and "Superbad.mp4" as 400kbps. in both cases after about five minutes of playback of each things fall apart... slowdown/frame drops/audio sync lost.

my extra from the Balls of Fury DVD is reported at 1000kbps which i would expect seeing as it was encoded with the same settings as the two full lengths and plays 100% fine throughout the 6:39 minute duration of the file.

edit: bounced these oddities off of their tech support and asked for a definitive on the max video bit-rate for H.264-MP for full length videos. in both attempts to do so i was fed the response that tech support was unavailable and to leave a message. hopefully i'll get some sort of response.

- Robert (PmR)DeathInJune

[bootlegapparel]

Hmm, well i'm gonna try a full dvd this time and see what results i can get

[pmrdij]

here's the GSpot info for both videos..

2716

- Robert (PmR)DIJ

[bootlegapparel]

Well I just tried some of my own Micallef show DVDs.

Firmware 1.18b

MP, H264, 1000kbps, 720x480 mp3 128kbps.

No good.

MP, H264, 1000kbps, 640x480 mp3 128kbps.

Yeah works.


So kinda lame, gotta drop the specs yet again. Also it seems like seeking is broken on H264.


I then tried firmware 1.20b

Seems to be more problems with this beta firmware.
Audio doesn't work on half of the H264 encoded files, and the seeking bar sometimes just says the movies finished and stays there it doesn't change as you're watching like normal. When you look at your recent files it will either say 100% or 0%, so the seek bar is broken on H264.

As for video:

MP, H264, 1000kbps, 720x480 mp3 128kbps.

Still no.

MP, H264, 1000kbps, 640x480 mp3 128kbps.

Little better than old firmware.


Though it looks like they're trying to fix seeking, as it sortof works for video but audio is still a wreck in the new firmware, but it's better than the old.

[pmrdij]

Well I just tried some of my own Micallef show DVDs.

Firmware 1.18b

MP, H264, 1000kbps, 720x480 mp3 128kbps.

No good.

MP, H264, 1000kbps, 640x480 mp3 128kbps.

Yeah works.


So kinda lame, gotta drop the specs yet again. Also it seems like seeking is broken on H264.


I then tried firmware 1.20b

Seems to be more problems with this beta firmware.
Audio doesn't work on half of the H264 encoded files, and the seeking bar sometimes just says the movies finished and stays there it doesn't change as you're watching like normal. When you look at your recent files it will either say 100% or 0%, so the seek bar is broken on H264.

As for video:

MP, H264, 1000kbps, 720x480 mp3 128kbps.

Still no.

MP, H264, 1000kbps, 640x480 mp3 128kbps.

Little better than old firmware.


Though it looks like they're trying to fix seeking, as it sortof works for video but audio is still a wreck in the new firmware, but it's better than the old.
marvelous. well personally i have almost had enough. NewEgg has offered me a full refund on both the A3 and my extended warranty i put on it just in case that battery issue popped up after Cowon's year of warranty support... they are even paying the shipping. all i have to do now is send it back.

had they said from the start that the max resolution was 720x480 for H.264-whatever i would not gone this direction but rather picked up a D2/SDHC and built the damn media PC for my living room.. heck i can even go back to using my iAudio5 for that matter. i got a D2 for my partner and while she likes it i actually prefer the joystick of the A3 over the touch screen. anyhow just for shits and giggles i downloaded an unnamed 720x480 H.264-MP video and at 787kbps/128kbps LC-AAC it plays almost perfectly on my A3. some of the frames glitch every so often. here's the humor --> this video plays 100% fine on my Barton XP system (video is a Radeon 9800 Pro) yet nothing in the range of 1000kbps 720x480 even gets past the first few seconds on this machine without issue. that being the case even getting to 720x480 on the A3 seems to further require a degrade in the bit-rate.

as a result of this i tried everything i could up to 2AM this morning trying to get any high bit-rate/res (1500+/720x480+) XviD to work with my A3 when having ASP Level 5 (or Unrestricted), 2 B-frames, QPEL and GMC and found that it could only handle anything below 720x480 res with such. overall i love my audio on the A3, like every Cowon i've owned, but i just can't get over the fact that they proudly flaunt it being able to do 720p XviD ASP and 480p H.264-M/HP video which registers with myself and others as making it a high quality playback solution only to find that getting such to work requires scaling back the quality to the point where it isn't quality at all.

- Robert (PmR)DeathInJune

[pmrdij]

still have not heard a word from Cowon on the max bit-rate they support at 720x480 resolution for -MP or -HP.. went through a wealth of TI documents related to the TMS320DM6441 last night and couldn't find anything mentioning figures when discussing H.264 playback. emailed them regarding the TMS320DM6441 and they've responded already. hopefully i'll have some figures by tonight.

- Robert (PmR)DIJ

[pmrdij]

never heard back from TI and still haven't heard from Cowon. interestingly i took the "Balls of Fury.mp4" that my A3 reported as being "212kbps" as opposed to the 1000kbps it was encoded at (confirmed as being 1000kbps through GSpot) and re-encoded it at 850kbps with everything else the same as before. my A3 reports this file as being "79kbps" but thus far it is playing 100% sans issue (i've got 1.20beta installed now - which i am not that fond of as most of my music plays with odd quirks at the beginning of each song). going to see how that unnamed download plays here shortly and perhaps also try going back to 1.15A/1.18beta and see how things go.

edit: #@%!.. spoke to soon. somewhere around the middle of the film i noticed a couple of frames were dropped. then towards the final 10 minutes of the film slow downs began, audio lost sync and frame drops were all over... re-encoding the original 1000kbps file at 800kbps now. am doing the same with the "Superbad.mp4" file.

- Robert (PmR)DeathInJune

[pmrdij]

re-encoding at 800kbps (Two-pass) did the trick for "Balls of Fury.mp4". no issues whatsoever with that file both on 1.18b and 1.20b. kbps is reported incorrectly still (this time lower than before @ 11kbps?!?). "Superbad.mp4" is a different story except that the kbps is now reported by my A3 as 200 as opposed to 400 [wacko]. playback eventually slows down, audio loses sync and frame drops begin.

seems like there is a definitely issue with the duration of the film and the kbps used for it.

"Balls of Fury.mp4" --> 90m --> encoded at 800kbps and playback is fine
"Superbad.mp4" --> 120m --> encoded at 800kbps and playback is borked

any music video from the Rammstein Lichtspielhaus DVD that i've encoded with 720x480, H.264-MP 1000kbps level 5.1 with 3 B-frames and 160kbps LC-AAC is fine (all of them are sub-10 minutes in length). reported by the A3 as 1000kbps everytime.

- Robert (PmR)DeathInJune

[Thasp]

what happens if you turn off brdo? at everything but stupid low bitrates that never makes a difference for me, sometimes even hurts psnr/ssim