View Full Version : How good do Iaudio players REALLY sound?
I'm looking for a new MP3 player and Iaudio has always been on the top of my list. However this article made me start to doubt:
http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-11297_7-6510133-1.html
When it comes to signal/noise ratio and distortion a device like the U3 scores rather poor, regardless the fact it scores best in frequency response. Btw, don't look at the distortion results for the X5 if you own one.
I always wonder; how many people who own an Iaudio actually looked at the audio quality from a more professional view.
The point is never know what it is that people base their opinion on.
A (with all respect) 16 year old who listens to some rock band with BBE turned on might think it sounds great, when a more experienced listener who listens to Jazz might consider the sound quality rather poor in comparison with other audio players.
Personally I have the impression that a lot of the Cowon audio quality comments are based on listening to music that is affected by things like BBE,, MP3Bass, MP Enhance, 3D, etc. I can understand that a lot of teenagers consider the sound produced by that “top quality” (you should hear how much my kids turn up the bass…), because let’s be honest, how many of them really know how to appreciate the sound quality of good Jazz or classical pieces. Sound effects are a crime and the only time I did hear some descent results was with a $3000 Yamaha Dolby Surround system.
So forget about all that sound effect candy and give me some impression where the Iaudio DAPs stand when it comes to real quality. Mind you, I understand that no DAP can compete with a good sound system, but I would like to see better results than what the U3 has shown in tests, because listening to nice Jazz piece with several pretty silent parts in it and then hearing background noise (sine the U3 only scores a poor 69.5SN)… no thank you and the X5 distortion number doesn't make me happy either.
Oh btw, don't tell me the CNET test is biased, tests on other sites and reviews of owners only confirm their results.
omjeremy
01-15-2007, 19:28
I have an A2 and I am a professional classical musician. The only sound enhancement I like is MP Enhance, as it does work to enhance the audio files and make them sound as if they were encoded at higher bitrates. In my opinion the other effects are useless. I really don't like they way they sound as they distort the music. That's not what's important to me. I like to listen to music with the EQ flat. This way, I'm listening to it as it was intended.
I personally think the A2 has the best sound I've ever heard in a portable player. Now, I haven't listened to many portable media players, but I've listened to many CD players and the A2 by far exceeds them in purity of sound. I enjoy listening to my music on the A2. It is as if I've never heard my music correctly, and I'm only using the supplied ear buds. I've never noticed high background noise on silent parts of music.
I have not used the X5 or U3, so I cannot comment on them.
I hope this helps you.
Most of those effects work on MP3 files, by attempting to restore information that was thrown away by compression.
You don't need that if you use FLAC.
Thanks Omjemery, but I'm interested in an MP3 player only and I'm not willing to spend $300 on one that has all that useless video stuff.
Most of those effects work on MP3 files, by attempting to restore information that was thrown away by compression. .
No, not true. Cowon added them for marketing reasons. The majority that buy an MP3 people are still younger people that are easily convinced by throwing artificial surround sound and things like mega bass at them and as a result you see them flocking sites like Newegg with reviews like “incredible sound!”. After a while this starts to run a life on its own and suddenly Iaudio players are being portayed as players with excellent audio quality, yet I still haven't seen any scientific proof and more and more I start to think it's nothing but hype based on their candy effects. Don’t get me wrong, for weeks now I’m eager to buy an Iaudio player, but doubts about audio quality are still holding me back.
You don't need that if you use FLAC
Running FLAC or any other lossless format on a MP3 player…sorry, but I always have to laugh about that. Now if you compare a Lame Extreme MP3 and Flac playing on a descent audio system, ok, but c’mon on… an MP3 player. [laugh]
Maybe it's this generation; growing up with MP3 players and computers and forgetting (or not knowing) what music should really sound like with the right equipment.
No, not true. Cowon added them for marketing reasons.
It's the truth, regardless of Cowon's motives.
Running FLAC or any other lossless format on a MP3 player…sorry, but I always have to laugh about that.
Explain.
ok, but c’mon on…
Elaborate, please.
Well, I read some reviews in German magazines (Chip and Connect) and both these publications gave the iAudio series of MP3 players excellent ratings in terms of sound quality (based on scientific tests).
I personally have listened loads of mp3 players, and just from my personal judgement, players from Cowon are some of the most excellent sounding players out there.
There are a lot of audio enthusuasts on these boards that are happy with their players. You only need to go down to the headphones section and you will notice this. Personally I have heard hardly any complaints about iAudio sound quality.
There is also a player by Kenwood out there somewhere (only being sold in Japan as far as I know) that uses a Digital Amp, that supposedly sounds super awesome, but I have never been able to verify this claim.
The all time favorites of "audiophiles" was the Rio Karma, but, well ... Rio went down the drain.
Oh, and yes of course Cowon added BBE effects for marketing reasons, but some of the effects are not all bad. For example Mach3Bass is actually an excellent way of increasing the Bassline without distorting the rest of the song.
Cowon would be stupid not to include these things in an mp3 player, because this is what the broad masses are looking for.
Just because they include these effects though, doesn't mean that their players have bad sound quality in any way. You don't have to use them ;-)
LostPhil
01-16-2007, 06:10
I own an X5 and although I only use lowly Senny PX100's I'd say the sound was pretty decent. The PX100's lean slightly towards the bass end of the scale but I find that the midrange and the treble don't suffer for it with this player. Cymbals and suchlike sound crisp and voices stand out. The only problem I find is that the headphones lack a little detail so I can't asses the player on those grounds (I know its the headphones as I've used them with my Denon hi-fi as well). I don't pretend to have golden ears and I certainly don't have the equipment to be considered a true "audiophile".
I keep the equaliser flat and I don't use any enhancements. Most of my music is in Q6 OGG and I have a couple of live shows in FLAC (haha yeah really stupid to keep FLAC on an mp3 player of all things...). Of course, only being young at 21 I have no appreciation for good sound quality at all and I automatically assume that it has the greatest sound just because someone else said so [rolleyes]
If you're really that interested, I listen to a mix of Metal, Rock, Indie (the proper sort as well as the sound normally associated with indie etc etc) and a touch of hip hop. But as I don't listen to Jazz I can't say whether it's any good for that.
Also, you are basing Cowon's reputation on 1 flash player and a report that the X5 has some "distortion". Have you actually listened to any of them?
EDIT: on the test where Cnet analysed the sound, they don't actually state what settings are used on the players. Are these the factory settings? I know my X5 had quite a lot of the effects turned on when I received it. I'm not defending the player, it would just be nice to know.
Much of the X5 reputation comes from the time of it's release almost two years ago. Other players have improved since. Headphones make a lot of difference.
Best is going to be hard to predict solely on metered studies and statistics. It can get you into the ball park and then the subjective matters start to come into play.
Mostly my X5 contains 20th century classical materials ripped at a fairly high OGG. I use it at work and out-of-home recreation. But I'd never turn to the X5 when I want an immersion in music. That's why I have both home and computer setups which are fairly serious for my givens and druthers.
I'm very happy with my X5. BUT, If I were to buy a new player then I'd have to start my research all over. Taking into account the statistics, my available $$$ and human factors.
Erasure4ever
01-27-2007, 06:00
Oh, and yes of course Cowon added BBE effects for marketing reasons, but some of the effects are not all bad. For example Mach3Bass is actually an excellent way of increasing the Bassline without distorting the rest of the song.
Cowon would be stupid not to include these things in an mp3 player, because this is what the broad masses are looking for.
Just because they include these effects though, doesn't mean that their players have bad sound quality in any way. You don't have to use them ;-)
Exactly! You can go out and buy a $5K Yamaha receiver that has all kinds of DSP effects, and Bass/Treble control, but of course there is a PURE DIRECT mode for the purists too. I NEVER use the PURE DIRECT mode because the sound is not very enjoyable even though it's pure and free of any enhancements. I need to use the Bass/Treble controls to make it interesting. I've been to real live classical concerts and there is no way the FLAT setting on the receiver is going to duplicate the live experience, same with an MP3 player. A live concert doesn't sound boring, but a iAudio MP3 player with everything turned off sounds very boring.
I use my X5 with rockbox. No EQ. No effects.
Using the headphone-out at -10dB volume, it's pretty much a high-quality line-out for my Go-Vibe 5.
The cnet results are suspect because they don't specify the volume level of the X5. In my experience the X5 experiences a sudden burst of distortion from volume levels 35-40 on the official firmware.
I am using 64 Kbs audiobooks from LibriVox, with dollar store headphones, I don't know if it's ht headphones, the file, or the G3, but it doesn't sound to good. :lol:
It's the file and the headphones :p
The G3 actually sounds excellent - one of my friends has one.
afruff23
01-29-2007, 02:05
I am using 64 Kbs audiobooks from LibriVox, with dollar store headphones, I don't know if it's ht headphones, the file, or the G3, but it doesn't sound to good. :lol:
Mostly the file, then your headphones.
EDIT: Not to sure, since speech only can be encoded at lower bitrates than music.
BassHead
01-29-2007, 20:28
BBE effects are purely subjective. If they sound good to you, then great, but there is little objective evidence to suggest they actually improve the sound. Many believe that they are simply a stop gap for weak players combined with cheap headphones. If you're really worried about good sound you need to encode the files at high quality, use good headphones, and for any of these portable players you will need to use a headphone amp. That said, the X5 has decent sound reproduction for its time. iAudio fans like us will of course plug them a little harder than we probably should. However, just take anything you read about BBE as a subjective opinion. Hydrogen Audio is a good forum for audiophile information and here's their discussion: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t39872.html
I think it's the file, the only diffrence between the dollar store headphones, and the ones that come with the package is that the ones with the packege are louder.
Mp3s are not what I use. OGG q2 are way better than typical mp3. And crappy headphones are not a good way to judge the sound quality either. I upgraded to $20 Koss KSC-75 and am quite satisfied.
If you want better SQ than the X5 or U3, you might consider that the LCD backlight probably causes distortion when it's on, and then weigh your preference of having a color screen. The M5 and G3 have monochrome LCDs, so you can keep the backlight turned off and still have all the functinality of the device. Only caveat is that Cowon is capable of making some very boneheaded decisions; leaving out the FM tuner from the M5 is one example and allowing limits on the amount of folders/files one can have on the G3 is another. Frankly, I never wanted a U3. Color screens on flash audio devices always seemed ridiculous to me. If I wanted to watch a video while riding mass transport, I'd pop a DVD into my laptop and have a wayyyyyy better experience than someone trying to focus on a video screen that is two inches from their eyes.
Color screens on flash audio devices always seemed ridiculous to me.
You are never going to win that war against color screens... :)
Erasure4ever
01-31-2007, 11:13
Well the D2 is a flash device and it has already shown that the 2.5" color screen is highly praised.
You are never going to win that war against color screens... :)
Who is fighting a "war against color screens"? I never tried to deny anyone the opportunity to buy a device with a color screen, and I assure you that I'm not interested in following such a plan. If someone wants a color screen, I welcome them to it.
It's really based on opinion. Some people say "Color Screens" reduce battery life and others just don't like it. I'm one to believe that DAPs with "Non-Color Screens" have a slightly better battery life but I can't complain as I have the F2 and my battery life based upon my EQ Settings, Display settings, and volume... I get around 16 to 18hrs.
btw, that cnet testing ? its BS, the PSP results prove it,
i had a psp for a month or so before i gave it away (had enough paperweights), the sound on it is horrid, extremly low volume, it has kellogs syndrome (snap, crackle and pop) and the frequency response was what inspiered the saying "if you cant say anything good, dont say anything at all"
i have a NW-HD5 along with my Cowon D2, i would say sound quality is about even, the HD5 sounds a bit better with my PMX100 headphones, but thats about it,
oskarthunberg
03-08-2007, 17:15
One of the reasons I bought a cowon is the output volume. I think maybe iRiver-players are quite good as well. Now I can listen to music with really great headphones. I had a Sony player (NW-HD5) before. The sound quality was good, but the output signal was not strong enough for my favorite headphones.
The most important things, in my opinion, when you're looking for sound quality, are good headphones and high bitrates. Some audio-codecs perform well on lower bitrates, but they all do well on higher bitrates. I don't care about the brand of the player. Sony and Creative and iRiver are good as well. All of them, the iPod and all the others, are a lot better than whatever we used and was happy with before, such as MD-players and casette-Walkmans.
But I have to admit: the best sounding portable player availble probably is a CD-player.
Right?
ok, that so called article calms the Ipod shuffle was one of the best. when really, there not all that good
pomoster
03-27-2007, 22:07
OK, I'm a little leery about replying because I'm not an audio professional. HOWEVER, I was brought up by a serious audiophile (my first cassette deck was a Nakamichi -- in the mid-80s) and I think I know my sound, if experientially, pretty well.
So, from the layperson-who-is-extremely-picky POV, I can say that NOTHING (as far as mp3 players go) compares to iAudio. I have the X5 and D2; I think the latter sounds better but it's a slight difference.
I recently did a test with three different kinds of music in 320: a live Stevie Wonder performance, Brahms Trio for Piano in A Minor, Op 114 (Allegro/Ax-Stoltzman-Ma) and The Art of Noise. I played all three on my Shure e3s (can't afford an upgrade just now) on: a) the X5, b) an Ipod Shuffle, and c) (un)Creative Zen. Oh, all were played filterless.
Again, I'm all about the informal, layperson experience... no crazy statistics here, just a refined ear drum. That said, the Creative literally cut out 50% of the sound information -- HORRIBLE. I'll admit that the Shuffle was better a lot better than the Zen but it was still mediocre. The X5 had the richest, cleanest and most multi-dimensional sound. Kinda wished I'd included the D2 in there, but I bought it after the big audio player pepsi challenge. The surprising thing was the Zen's performance; I read some very complicated review of it that used all kinds of software to test it and it peformed well then.
Anyway, I hope this helps you... I fall somewhere between that 16 year old and the professional, maybe closer to the 16 year old in sophistication, though not in age. [wink] I do want to try out the NW-HD5 someday....
Viper_Scull
03-31-2007, 17:58
Hi, i'm spanish so excuse my english.
Cnet??? don't make me laugh. You just have to see this comparison between D2 and iRiver Clix (yes, not Clix 2 but Clix), and read the specs and reviews of both of them.
http://www.cnettv.com/9710-1_53-25910.html
I owned a Rio Karma (maybe the best sound i've heard along with M5l (X5l without FM reciever) and A2 in a mp3 player), and a X5l that died (against the ground). I own now an A2 and D2 is coming soon. I've tested also several models of iRiver like T10 and H10, some creatives(Vision:M, V plus), and ipods (Nano 2g, Video 5,5g).
Quality of sound of creative and ipod is much worse by far. iRiver has a good quality, maybe the same as non-high-end iAudio products. But the Cowon A2, X5 (and M5) and now D2 smash all their competitors up in quality of sound and features (i don't know if features is the correct word).
Again, sorry about my poor english.
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